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  1. #1756

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    More a minority position than an unpopular opinion, but: I have one hell of a time accepting resurrections if the death was carefully worked out and the resurrection occurs without due explanation.

    Alfred's death may have been sophomoric symbolism, but it was enough a part of King's master plan (such as it was) that fishing him back from oblivion would be all but a frank admission by DC that King was wrong--that letting King carry on was wrong--at a fundamental level. On the other hand, King's Batman feels so little like "real" Batman that if everything King did were retconned in one blow it would strike me less as a violation of continuity than simplying bringing Alfred back would. At this time they appear inclined to do neither.

  2. #1757
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Alfred's death may have been sophomoric symbolism, but it was enough a part of King's master plan (such as it was) that fishing him back from oblivion would be all but a frank admission by DC that King was wrong--that letting King carry on was wrong--at a fundamental level. On the other hand, King's Batman feels so little like "real" Batman that if everything King did were retconned in one blow it would strike me less as a violation of continuity than simplying bringing Alfred back would. At this time they appear inclined to do neither.
    You're probably right. I was expecting at least some sort of reboot, but who even knows what's going to happen there anymore (even with 5G coming). And Doomsday Clock has seemingly been close to dead in the water for a while, so Alfred's presence there (not reading myself, but heard he was there) is likely meaningless.

  3. #1758
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I'll be honest, I don't really care for Harley and Ivy as this "grand" DC romance on par with Lois and Clark that makes them better people or more heroic. I don't mind the relationship as a whole, but just the level of importance they keep placing on it. I guess it's good they have a prominent LGBT couple, but I just don't feel it.

    And I'm tired of Ivy coming off like Harley's plus one.

  4. #1759
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    "Bonnie and Clyde were pretty lookin' people
    But I can tell you people they were the devil's children"

    That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.
    Justice for Flight PS752

  5. #1760
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.
    I very much agree. These are killers. Usually quite unremorseful ones. And they made pretty good villains. I'd like them to stay good villains.

    Also, I admit, I'm so fed up with "gray" - no. A character does enough bad things, and they aren't gray, they're just evil. And I like my heroes good and admirable. Not perfect, but good. I like good guys and bad guys and heroes triumphing over evil. But publishers love to muddy the waters by having heroes do terrible things. Sometimes just for shock value, and sometimes properly followed up on. Often without regard to whether it's in character. But I guess there isn't a real "in character" anymore for a lot of them, given how long they've been around and how varied their portrayals.

    But for my way, there'd be good guys and bad guys and very, very small number of gray characters.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-06-2019 at 06:10 PM.

  6. #1761
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    "Bonnie and Clyde were pretty lookin' people
    But I can tell you people they were the devil's children"

    That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.
    Well, Condiment King has endangered peoples' clothes with ketchup and mustard stains, but no one wants to give him a redemption arc.

  7. #1762
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    The Joker should sick Solomon Grundy on Batman way more often.

  8. #1763
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    "Bonnie and Clyde were pretty lookin' people
    But I can tell you people they were the devil's children"

    That's the way I feel about romances between criminals. In the movie, the way that Bonnie and Clyde met their end was the definition of overkill, but they were never heroes. I know that Harley and Ivy are supposed to be more like anti-heroes, but they were definitely villains. And I don't feel like most criminals should get redemption arcs. Most of them can't make up for all the harm they caused. There might be some that never endangered any lives--"The Case of the Honest Crook"--but if we start redeeming murderers and gangsters then it blurs the lines between the good guys and the bad guys.
    Agreed !00%

    I'm not a fan of Ivy in the first place... Her entire purpose is to be a murderous seductress. In this day and age, I don't see how you can have 'Drugs and seduces victims then kills them' in the first place... but then to hand wave it away with redemption arcs is just tone-deaf. She really needs to either die, or get locked away in Arkham and ignored for a good long time... but trying to make people root for her misses so many points...

    Harley's no better. She basically boils down to 'Well... I haven't murdered anyone TODAY... so what's the problem??' At least with Catwoman they went decades with her being 'just a thief' and 'nobody really got hurt'.... but Ivy's left a trail of bodies and there have been races to beat her infections before they killed Bruce Wayne, Lucius Fox and even Black Canary... Not to mention tons of other random people. She's... NOT a good person. She's not even neutral. She's out to kill some folks.

  9. #1764
    Incredible Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Unpopular opinion. Dick needs a long break away from the batfamily.

  10. #1765
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Dick needs to die. Give the character some regroup time and a hard reset point after Ric, cause after 2 year of what they been doing they are going to have a hard time convincing general readers to check out the character. Creative standing with the character is in the toilet, and fan sentiment is beyond negative.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-06-2019 at 06:35 PM.

  11. #1766
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    Unpopular opinion. Dick needs a long break away from the batfamily.
    Dick used to be my favorite character. Old-school Dick still is. I especially like him in both the first half of the 80s (away from Batfam) and second half of the '90s (with Batfam), though those versions are different in characterization. I ship him and Barbara (Dixon-era). While there were certainly problems as early as the post-COIE story of him becoming Nightwing (it really regressed him back to proving himself issues to Bruce, which he'd passed, and that's something we've never really gotten away from long-term since), I think Grayson's run is when he went downhill quick. I've heard it said she had a huge influence on shaping the character, and I agree, but I think it was a huge bad influence and that he's much diminished from what he once was. But it's certainly not all on her. My problem is that for a long while he's been placed in deliberately subordinate role to Batman. As though being part of the family means he must remain lesser. It's not actually being around Batman that causes the problem, in the sense that he could be around the gang and be written well. But I don't think that will happen. As long as he's with the Bats, I think there will be slap-downs to show he's just not in Bruce's league (ugh), he'll come running when Bruce wants him and follow the unreasonable orders, he'll revert to acting like a child who needs his dad periodically instead of a grown man, and we'll get that extremely frustrating compartmentalization of Robins I've complained about before where each can have only one overwhelming trait leaving Dick either an immature manchild airhead or the immature lothario airhead.

    Dick needs to die. Give him some regroup time and the a hard reset point after Ric, cause after 2 year of what they been doing they are going to have a hard time convincing general readers to check out the character. Creative reputation with the character is in the toilet, and fan sentiment very negative.
    I don't want to advocate death and resurrection - it's so old and tired and boring. And Didio might jump at the chance to keep him dead. How's the Titans tv show doing? I'm not watching it, but if it's doing well, there might be some worth in trying to capitalize on it. Not that I want to try to recreate the NTT yet again. I liked in the pre-COIE-era, but they do love repeating storylines with them over and over and over and there's such a thing as moving on.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-07-2019 at 05:12 AM.

  12. #1767

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    I like Ivy when she's written well and can sometimes, with an effort, like Harley for a moment. But her fans make it hard. One of my main grievances against Harley is that she has *always* gotten away with murder, on and off the page. Now, all in all, I prefer the rogues to the heroes. I don't mind having some gray characters, or characters who pass through gray phases. I don't mind the writers playing with rehabilitation in a story line. I don't mind sympathetic villains with complicated motivations. But I cannot stand it when writers or fans give horrendous characters a free pass.

  13. #1768
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't want to advocate death and resurrection - it's so old and tired and boring. And Didio might jump at the chance to keep him dead. How's the Titans tv show doing? I'm not watching it, but if it's doing well, there might be some worth in trying to capitalize on it. Not that I want to try to recreate the NTT yet again. I liked in the pre-COIE-era, but they do love repeating storylines with them over and over and over and there's such a thing as moving on.
    Well they burned the whole give him amnesia and have him retire route, and they clearly have no interest on capitalizing on the show. I personally think its existence offends some of the old dudes running the comic department. Either way my point is they have done so poorly, and obnoxiously ignored reception on what they have been doing, that if they think they can just put him back to the old norms and readers are just gonna care again they will be fooling themselves. It might even hurt the character further. Dick's comic situation is bad to the point that a regroup period might be in the characters best interest.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 12-06-2019 at 07:40 PM.

  14. #1769
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Unpopular Opinion: I think Harley's original costume sucks. Tacky as some of them may be, I'm actually pretty fond of a lot of her new looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denirac View Post
    a One Night Stand between Jason Todd and Harley Quinn would be an interesting angle for a Story about the Trauma caused by Joker and I'm surprised it hasnt happened yet
    You know...I wouldn't object to them having some sort of relationship. Not a full blown romance or anything. Hell, even sleeping together once seems a bit overkill...

    But I could see those two working together or having some sort of reluctant bonding moment from time to time.
    Last edited by Blue22; 12-06-2019 at 11:14 PM.

  15. #1770
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    DC's overall vision is embarrassing and juvenile, especially for Batman. They've been carried by the strength of adaptations and legacy. The DCU app's original content is horrible - Titans and Harley Quinn. The animated films are cringey. They're creatively driving the IPs into obscure niche territory, while Marvel continues to make DC a niche afterthought aside from Batman movies/games.

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