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  1. #1531
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What new heroes are being hand held by someone else? And how are they being hand held as opposed to just having people who help them out like plenty of heroes of yester year have had?
    Well - "new" in this case means "post-crisis." And I'd say plenty. It works okay with Kon-El or Jaime Reyes in their early days, since they are younger, but they definitely have heroes come around to encourage them and tell them they are doing well (or alternately castigate them). Judgement and condemnation got piled on Booster and Huntress by senior heroes. Back when the silver age heroes were heroes, they had team-ups, but they were always peer-to-peer. No training provided, no casting judgement, and most especially no junior-to-senior dynamic. Early post-crisis really drove me crazy with this. They wanted to use established heroes to guest for sales, I guess, but it was extremely frustrating to read new heroes not allowed the space to grow independently and had to receive either validation or confirmation from the senior class. And, as it seems like more and more heroes are legacy now, they are more and more tied to previous "generations" they are more likely to be trained by others than to set manage their own training, more likely to be judged (as good or not), more likely to be funded by others, and overall, IMO, less allowed to be really independent of their mentors. That they even have specific, continually involved mentors, is something that sets them apart. Which wouldn't matter so much if it was only a few, but it certainly feels like a large percentage of the new ones to me. As I said previously (not sure on this thread), a lot of it is the more integrated nature of comics (they didn't mix fandoms as much back when), and that later there were a lot more pre-existing heroes still around and in the same world, but to me I do feel like new heroes don't get the same freedom and independence that old ones did. It's frustrating to me to see a character that got to do things their own way without any interference (Superman, Batman, etc.) come and criticize and try to control new generations because they aren't allowed the same opportunity.

  2. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Well - "new" in this case means "post-crisis." And I'd say plenty. It works okay with Kon-El or Jaime Reyes in their early days, since they are younger, but they definitely have heroes come around to encourage them and tell them they are doing well (or alternately castigate them). Judgement and condemnation got piled on Booster and Huntress by senior heroes. Back when the silver age heroes were heroes, they had team-ups, but they were always peer-to-peer. No training provided, no casting judgement, and most especially no junior-to-senior dynamic. Early post-crisis really drove me crazy with this. They wanted to use established heroes to guest for sales, I guess, but it was extremely frustrating to read new heroes not allowed the space to grow independently and had to receive either validation or confirmation from the senior class. And, as it seems like more and more heroes are legacy now, they are more and more tied to previous "generations" they are more likely to be trained by others than to set manage their own training, more likely to be judged (as good or not), more likely to be funded by others, and overall, IMO, less allowed to be really independent of their mentors. That they even have specific, continually involved mentors, is something that sets them apart. Which wouldn't matter so much if it was only a few, but it certainly feels like a large percentage of the new ones to me. As I said previously (not sure on this thread), a lot of it is the more integrated nature of comics (they didn't mix fandoms as much back when), and that later there were a lot more pre-existing heroes still around and in the same world, but to me I do feel like new heroes don't get the same freedom and independence that old ones did. It's frustrating to me to see a character that got to do things their own way without any interference (Superman, Batman, etc.) come and criticize and try to control new generations because they aren't allowed the same opportunity.
    Bare in mind that Kon and Jaime are teenagers and did need guidance just like previous teen superheroes did. Booster and Huntress were pretty independent and didn't actually have mentors or people holding their hands. Well those people weren't the other heroes any way. In Booster's case people just dumped on him for not taking things seriously and in Huntress' case she was more a foil than Bruce's side kick and she told him to screw off plenty of times and made it clear she didn't really need his approval.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-23-2019 at 08:33 AM.

  3. #1533
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    If all this hinges on the bolded parts... why don't you just change your initial view, since it turned out to be mistaken, or based on misleading info? You're basically letting something that was never true in the first place color your opinion, even in light of the correct information.
    I have correct information. The thing is - what I wanted isn't what I got. And I think what I wanted was superior to what I got (that's the controversial opinion). As I said, I view Batwoman as a missed opportunity. Something that could have been great, but wasn't. She and her setup were just "meh." I like a bit or two. But with the other things I didn't like (stepmother as unlikeable, evil twin), it was already an uphilll battle. I was going to say "There's nothing wrong with her as she is, but there was also nothing in those issues that grabbed or made me love the character. " but yes, there is something wrong to me - I'm really tired of heroes that don't get to be fully in charge of themselves. Jacob set up everything, and he controlled the funding. It's not a setup I enjoyed - it's one I dislike. I don't like someone else holding all that power over an adult hero (I also associate it heavily with some of my most disliked attributes of Bruce, and her with a bat on her chest is going to be a reminder). It was not enjoyable to me. It may have changed later, but I'm not going to read something I don't enjoy just because it might get good later.

    Bare in mind that Kon and Jaime are teenagers and did need guidance just like previous teen superheroes did. Booster and Huntress were pretty independent and didn't actually have mentors or people holding their hands. Well those people weren't the other heroes any way. In Booster's case people just dumped on him for not taking things seriously and in Huntress' case she was more a foil than Bruce's side kick and she told him to screw off plenty of times.
    That's why the slashes, sort of. Some get handheld. Some get trained. Some get comforted. Some get castigated. Few get all of those. I'm much more comfortable with it with teens. And I was much more okay with Guy's or Peacemaker's open offer than Bruce's surreptitious funding (I really don't like him using money that way; I feel it gives him too much control or indebts others to him too much, even unknowingly). I was thrilled when Jaime told Barbara to take a hike, because her methods were intentionally intrusive and probably a bit intentionally intimidating/awing. But even with the adult heroes, it becomes so important that we (or they) know what senior heroes think of them. Whether they find them worthy or want to insult them. I'm not talking about sidekickness with Huntress. I'm talking about him showing up in her comic and trying to "school" her. He may even be right. Which is worse in a way, because it diminishes the new hero in the eyes of the readers because they get good advice they don't take. Again, that works better for teens than adults. And you can say senior heroes do that to each other. And they do. But they all had years to build up reps before that happened. And they are confronted by people who regard them as peers, not rookies who need to be taught. But for some of those adult heroes, they had older (pre-existant) heroes just basically show up and tell them what to do. Whether or not they did what they were told, they are at least partially defined by their reactions to those interventions. Very few just work alone, then meet the older heroes on equal footing as peers. While I expect fans to have a hierarchy, I don't like in-universe heroes perceiving other adult heroes in such fashion at all (and it's been used as a joke way too many times, too). I would like heroes to be regard newbies as implicit equals rather than juniors until they prove themselves unworthy of it. And once one has established hero cred, s/he should be seen as an equal. Not everyone has the same power, of course, and not everyone will get along, and they won't all respect each other, and that's okay. But I don't think one adult hero should regard another as lesser in the sense of "rank" ...I guess. I don't really have the words. But one shouldn't feel that it's inherently their place to instruct, validate, or judge another as a person senior to them. It's one of the reasons I like the JL not to have a particular leader and especially not to have one group (Trinity, Big Seven, etc.) the "boss" of the others. Once they're there, they should regard each other as equals, even if the readers don't.

    EDIT: Shoutout to Wally - who originally was a teen who did not get any particular training or instruction, but immediately went to working on his own rather than sidekicking. Retconned to an extent later, but it was nice.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-23-2019 at 08:58 AM.

  4. #1534
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Jacob set up everything, and he controlled the funding.
    I don't like someone else holding all that power over an adult hero
    You're still overemphasizing the actual amount of power Jacob had over her. He didn't control her funding or have executive power over her or something. That's simply not the case, nor was it ever.
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  5. #1535
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    I liked how Robin killed Nightwing in Injustice.

  6. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    I liked how Robin killed Nightwing in Injustice.
    Honestly? I do too as it highlights the hypocrisy of Bruce and the other "heroes," especially since Dick's death is a direct result of Harley Quinn's actions as are all the deaths in the entire series except for Jim Gordon's. Sure, Damian should not have thrown the escrima stick. However, he had done it hundreds of times before without any harm to Dick, he was 13, angry, and needed some level of stability in his life for a moment particularly after having just been carried off by Solomon Grundry.

    It's a scene that highlights how children are treated after accidentally causing the deaths of a family member by other family members: they themselves become orphans and outcasts even in cases where they have good, upstanding, ethical and moral parents, who love them unconditionally. You know, people who are the opposite of most versions of Bruce Wayne.

    Dick's death is at the core of the theme of Injustice as it was an accident caused by a child who is held responsible for it and all other actions of the adults around him, yet Harley Quinn who is an adult, has shades of pedophilia in her character, and is shown unequivocally to be fully cognizant and aware of the consequences of her actions as well as a willing participant not a coerced victim walks free of all guilt and consequences.

    At the core of the series, Superman was right. Everything that happened was Bruce's fault. Had Harley been brought in to face a court of law not in Gotham she would have been tried, convicted, and received lethal injection. The world would have have healed.

    It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.

  7. #1537
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Honestly? I do too as it highlights the hypocrisy of Bruce and the other "heroes," especially since Dick's death is a direct result of Harley Quinn's actions as are all the deaths in the entire series except for Jim Gordon's. Sure, Damian should not have thrown the escrima stick. However, he had done it hundreds of times before without any harm to Dick, he was 13, angry, and needed some level of stability in his life for a moment particularly after having just been carried off by Solomon Grundry.

    It's a scene that highlights how children are treated after accidentally causing the deaths of a family member by other family members: they themselves become orphans and outcasts even in cases where they have good, upstanding, ethical and moral parents, who love them unconditionally. You know, people who are the opposite of most versions of Bruce Wayne.

    Dick's death is at the core of the theme of Injustice as it was an accident caused by a child who is held responsible for it and all other actions of the adults around him, yet Harley Quinn who is an adult, has shades of pedophilia in her character, and is shown unequivocally to be fully cognizant and aware of the consequences of her actions as well as a willing participant not a coerced victim walks free of all guilt and consequences.

    At the core of the series, Superman was right. Everything that happened was Bruce's fault. Had Harley been brought in to face a court of law not in Gotham she would have been tried, convicted, and received lethal injection. The world would have have healed.

    It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.
    Not going to argue that Harley was a main cause of most the issues, Supes isn't exactly absolved either. He brutally murdered Ollie (a guy as opposed to killing as Bruce is). Nearly wiped out new Metropolis and Gotham as "examples", murdered Shazam/Billy for NOT wanting to kill all of those people...

    Yeah. Supes lost whatever pedestal he had throughout the series.

    Honestly, Jason Todd had the best balance. He did kill bad people, but he never went to being a global dictator. Strictly about protecting the innocent.

  8. #1538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Not going to argue that Harley was a main cause of most the issues, Supes isn't exactly absolved either. He brutally murdered Ollie (a guy as opposed to killing as Bruce is). Nearly wiped out new Metropolis and Gotham as "examples", murdered Shazam/Billy for NOT wanting to kill all of those people...

    Yeah. Supes lost whatever pedestal he had throughout the series.

    Honestly, Jason Todd had the best balance. He did kill bad people, but he never went to being a global dictator. Strictly about protecting the innocent.
    Injustice is an interesting "What if?" situation with The Kingdom Universe. In both, the Joker kills Lois and most of Metropolis and then is killed by Superman. In the Kingdom, Clark recieved support and compassion from Bruce (and Selina is written realistically as unredeemable and ends up with the Riddler). There are no Robins but Dick, and Damian doesn't technically exist as Talia had successfully evaded her family to carry the baby to term and give him a few years of a happy childhood before Grandpa found him. These things are the various lines that create a different universe, one where the last twenty years of Batman's life are filled with joy, happiness, live, and family.

    Notably, there's no Harley Quinn, no BatCat as a feasible romance, and Steve Trevor was not a Nazi. Hence a happy ending for the survivors, unlike Injustice which has no happy ending only more injustice piled up on every victim, except Jason who once again demonstrates that he's the actual smart one.

    I absolutely hate how Seely gave Bruce redemption in Injustice vs Masters. Injustice Bruce was never defined as or shown to be a loving, caring parent nor did he deserve any devotion from Damian. The original Trinity should have died, along with Harley and most of their generation, to pave the way for Damian and Kara to rebuild the world as like Nala and Simba in The Lion King.

  9. #1539
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.
    Which is exactly why I've never been against Jason and Damian's ways of doing things (even if Damian's way in Teen Titans was VERY flawed). For someone who knows just how corrupt Gotham (and the US government as a whole) is, Bruce sure does love leaving the dangerous criminals on their doorsteps. Knowing full well, they'll be out in about a week. Is this really the crusade against crime that he wanted so badly? Stopping criminals and murderers only to send them to the same Asylum that they routinely escape from? Hell, as much as I support BatCat, even that's all kinds of fucked up considering given Bruce's supposed stance on crime. For fuck's sake, she even stole her wedding dress. Bruce is a hypocrite. And he's just as responsible for all the crime related deaths in Gotham City as the madmen that he has put in time out for five minutes.

  10. #1540
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Duke Thomas could wash Tim Drake in straight-up hand-to-hand combat.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
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  11. #1541
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Not going to argue that Harley was a main cause of most the issues, Supes isn't exactly absolved either. He brutally murdered Ollie (a guy as opposed to killing as Bruce is). Nearly wiped out new Metropolis and Gotham as "examples", murdered Shazam/Billy for NOT wanting to kill all of those people...

    Yeah. Supes lost whatever pedestal he had throughout the series.

    Honestly, Jason Todd had the best balance. He did kill bad people, but he never went to being a global dictator. Strictly about protecting the innocent.
    What?! Are you Joking? Jason was a hired killer for Ra's [a Dictator] as they tried to wipe out majority of humanity .Jason tried to kill an innocent child and he was just a hired goon so he had no principles. Surly you are kidding when you say he had the best balance? You are being selective and incorrect.

    Damian and Brainac those two were the ones that Taylor said are the halfway point between the two extremes that are Superman and Batman.
    Damian was the one that got Jason to quit being a goon for Ra's and think of what is right. Damian's the one who got Jason into protecting the innocent.
    Damian is the Bat that spent his evenings still patrolling and protecting the innocent. Sometimes with Kara. We never saw Jason protecting the innocent.

    Damian was the only Bat shown to care strictly about protecting the innocents. That's his whole thing. The reason why he went against his dad. The reason why he took down Ra's. The reason he was out every night and the reason why in the spin off he gathers the resistance and overthrows Superman

  12. #1542
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Duke Thomas could wash Tim Drake in straight-up hand-to-hand combat.
    That's not unpopular or even debated. That's just what is

  13. #1543
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    What?! Are you Joking? Jason was a hired killer for Ra's [a Dictator] as they tried to wipe out majority of humanity .Jason tried to kill an innocent child and he was just a hired goon so he had no principles. Surly you are kidding when you say he had the best balance? You are being selective and incorrect.

    Damian and Brainac those two were the ones that Taylor said are the halfway point between the two extremes that are Superman and Batman.
    Damian was the one that got Jason to quit being a goon for Ra's and think of what is right. Damian's the one who got Jason into protecting the innocent.
    Damian is the Bat that spent his evenings still patrolling and protecting the innocent. Sometimes with Kara. We never saw Jason protecting the innocent.

    Damian was the only Bat shown to care strictly about protecting the innocents. That's his whole thing. The reason why he went against his dad. The reason why he took down Ra's. The reason he was out every night and the reason why in the spin off he gathers the resistance and overthrows Superman
    Video game ending man.

  14. #1544
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Who knew CBR polls were facts. Both Talia and Selina are bad. A criminal is a criminal. Sure I would rather get stolen from than killed but Bruce never even tries to ever arrest Talia. Selina often gets wrangled banged in handcuffs and thrown in jail by batsy but not the killer[well mass since both ladies are killers]

    That is what I dislike about Batman. He is a hypocrite and not a good person a lot of the time. He lets criminals off so long as they are hot or because he's horny. After Damian's death he was still smitten with Talia. Still snogging her. I felt like screaming "Your kid is dead man!".

    That's my unpopular opinion Batman is a questionable as a hero and he clearly discriminates against male villains

  15. #1545
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Video game ending man.
    No that comics we are talking about the comics. And we are not talking about the ending we are talking about the story what went on since all endings in the game vary so none matter.

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