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  1. #1606
    Unapologetic Feminist Shadowcat's Avatar
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    The Batfamily is too big, and it’s at a size that isn’t sustainable.

  2. #1607
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    I just realized recently (as in, today) but Bruce Wayne needs to willingly step down as Batman for a time. The last few years, he has been a particularly terrible person when it came to his family - ever since Rebirth, really. I love Batman as a character, but I seriously couldn't feel it for some time now, whatever the title he was in, and now I think that having a replacement who is fun and open and sympathetic to the rest of the family, even with a grumbling Bruce in the background, as seems to be the case in the future, would do wonder for the characters and the mantle of Batman.

  3. #1608
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Speaking of Bruce being a dick, when did he start doing that? He wasn't like that when I read him as a kid, which is a mix of random Golden, Silver, Bronze Age stuffs.

  4. #1609
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    He was kind of a jerk in New 52, but it was mostly during period of stress, and he always - at least to me- managed to offset it by genuine moments of shame or sorrow even when he was too stubborn to admit his mistakes immediately.

    I think it predates Flashpoint however, but he truly turned into an unlikeable character since Rebirth : ignoring his son's birthday, dismissive of Dick's actions as a Titan and the like, beating Jason to a pulp because he tried to kill Penguin without hearing any of his reasons, etc.

    All of this could have been offset if he at least had been fun, somewhat, like he was under Snyder, with his cold gruff humor, but he was simply angry and bitter in Rebirth (under King's pen but also other writers).

  5. #1610
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Bruce admitted, in private, to Dick, after Dick keeps insisting for Bruce to be honest, that Bruce made Jason Robin in post-crisis immediately after firing Dick because he misses Dick, then promptly tell him to get out of the cave. Both of them didn't tell Jason of course, but that's the earliest dickishness I know.

    I forgot which issue. Dick is in Discowing outfit and it was drawn by Jim Aparo.

    Found it. Batman (Vol. 1) #416 (1988)
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 09-04-2019 at 01:56 AM.

  6. #1611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    The Batfamily is too big, and itís at a size that isnít sustainable.
    I never really get why this is such a popular opinion. The batfamily has a rotating core cast of about 8-10 people and has for the last twenty years. For a franchise of it's size, that's a small to normal-sized cast.

  7. #1612
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Speaking of Bruce being a dick, when did he start doing that? He wasn't like that when I read him as a kid, which is a mix of random Golden, Silver, Bronze Age stuffs.
    Since Frank Miller interpretation of the character, he became colder and more paranoic after it, but he was still likable, it was after Knightfall when it took almost a full effect, some writers are able to walk it back to a more nice characterization for a bit, but it never last, he goes back to being an asshole sooner or later. 2000s Batman in particular is more often than not, someone that is too unlikable to actually root for.
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  8. #1613
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    I never really get why this is such a popular opinion. The batfamily has a rotating core cast of about 8-10 people and has for the last twenty years. For a franchise of it's size, that's a small to normal-sized cast.
    The problem is that they all do the same thing and start to take away more from eachother and Batman than they add. Of course they have their fans, but when that fandom necessitates that these characters always get their moment it draws away from Batman. They aren't a supporting cast so much as an ensemble.

    Other characters like Jim Gordon, Harvey Bullock, Leslie Thompson, Alfred, and Harold bring more new things to Batman's world than a 10th Robin or 7th Batgirl.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #1614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    I never really get why this is such a popular opinion. The batfamily has a rotating core cast of about 8-10 people and has for the last twenty years. For a franchise of it's size, that's a small to normal-sized cast.
    But Batman isn't supposed to be a franchise like the Justice League of America or the Green Lantern Corps. There's one Batman, that's it. I'm not against other characters operating out of Gotham City--in the 1940s, Green Lantern was in Gotham (and hardly ever met Batman) and in the 1970s, the Demon/Jason Blood was in Gotham (only rarely meeting up with the Bat). And I'm not against Batman having associates that work in other cities and countries--like the Club of Heroes--or even Batman being a member of a group like the Justice League or the Outsiders. Or Batman hanging around with characters that are clearly not trying to steal his act, like the Mystery Analysts of Gotham City or Jason Bard or Elongated Man or Gotham Central. But it takes something away from the Batman if there's a pack of them all working in the same city, with the same M.O., fighting the same villains and stepping on the Cape Crusader's cape.
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  10. #1615
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    But Batman isn't supposed to be a franchise like the Justice League of America or the Green Lantern Corps. There's one Batman, that's it. I'm not against other characters operating out of Gotham City--in the 1940s, Green Lantern was in Gotham (and hardly ever met Batman) and in the 1970s, the Demon/Jason Blood was in Gotham (only rarely meeting up with the Bat). And I'm not against Batman having associates that work in other cities and countries--like the Club of Heroes--or even Batman being a member of a group like the Justice League or the Outsiders. Or Batman hanging around with characters that are clearly not trying to steal his act, like the Mystery Analysts of Gotham City or Jason Bard or Elongated Man or Gotham Central. But it takes something away from the Batman if there's a pack of them all working in the same city, with the same M.O., fighting the same villains and stepping on the Cape Crusader's cape.
    Yeah! Batman doesn't need help to look after a city of millions of people, rampant crime and corruption, and numerous areas...

    Besides, other than Damian in Detective Comics, and Babs in Burnside (which might as well be a different city anyways), the others aren't even IN Gotham. Dick is being a hobo in Bludhaven, Tim is doing who knows what under Bendis, Jason was exiled (despite being born and grew up in Gotham) and is now looking after some meta-teens, Steph... I don't know. Cass and Duke are with the Outsiders which aren't even restricted to Gotham. And Kate, other than an appearance here and there, hasn't even been really touched upon since her solo ended.

  11. #1616
    Is The Best Monk The Red Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Yeah! Batman doesn't need help to look after a city of millions of people, rampant crime and corruption, and numerous areas...

    Besides, other than Damian in Detective Comics, and Babs in Burnside (which might as well be a different city anyways), the others aren't even IN Gotham. Dick is being a hobo in Bludhaven, Tim is doing who knows what under Bendis, Jason was exiled (despite being born and grew up in Gotham) and is now looking after some meta-teens, Steph... I don't know. Cass and Duke are with the Outsiders which aren't even restricted to Gotham. And Kate, other than an appearance here and there, hasn't even been really touched upon since her solo ended.
    That's not a valid defense. Just because they are in other cities or otherwise doing fuck all doesn't mean they need to exist at all. They are superfluous and add nothing that no-one else already does. It would be somewhat mitigated if they had vivid personalities to make up for it but the vast majority of them don't. They are just sitting there. Just because some fans would screech like harpies if they were to be culled does not justify their continued existence in the Bat-Family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Speaking of Bruce being a dick, when did he start doing that? He wasn't like that when I read him as a kid, which is a mix of random Golden, Silver, Bronze Age stuffs.
    Post-Frank-Miller stuff, really. I was reluctant to blame Miller initially, since his version of Batman made sense and was crafted specifically for that world and figured it was just hack writers copying what worked with Miller without understanding why it worked, but then I saw Miller himself kind of pushing that same interpretation everywhere else and yeah, fuck Frank Miller for that. Problem is, it's entrenched too deep now. If you have Batman talking, laughing and politely conversing with someone like Superman, instead of acting like a standoffish dick who is one sentence away from telling Clark to go fuck himself for asking him how his day was or waiting for Gordon to finish talking to him instead of leaving while his back is turned without saying goodbye, then many fans will start raging that it's not "the real Batman". Even the most "kind-hearted" versions of Batman have unfortunately been infected by it and every other media version of Batman cribs from it. He's no longer a generally well-adjusted man who was inspired to take up his crusade by tragedy but grew beyond it like in the Golden/Silver/Bronze Ages, he's now an emotionally stunted weirdo who pushes people away because psychological issues. People would be confused nowadays if you showed them a scan of Batman walking down the street and greeting civilians from a Bronze Age comic or fighting crime during the day or goofing off with lighthearted jokes.
    Last edited by The Red Monk; 09-04-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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  12. #1617
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    It would be somewhat mitigated if they had vivid personalities to make up for it but the vast majority of them don't.
    Uh... yes they do. What are you talking about?
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  13. #1618
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    That's not a valid defense. Just because they are in other cities or otherwise doing fuck all doesn't mean they need to exist at all. They are superfluous and add nothing that no-one else already does. It would be somewhat mitigated if they had vivid personalities to make up for it but the vast majority of them don't. They are just sitting there. Just because some fans would screech like harpies if they were to be culled does not justify their continued existence in the Bat-Family.
    I disagree - if that "screeching" resulted in reduced sales, that does justify it.

    I do think they don't need to add more members. I don't think they "needed" all the ones they added. But that doesn't mean the ones that already exist can't be used well, and developed into good characters themselves. Alas, many of them are being used crappily right now. And personalities have gotten to "segmented" for my flavor - like they have to be aspects of Bruce or dominated by one emotional trait (to make them "distinctive") instead of being well-rounded individuals. Doesn't happen all the time, but does happen. Discussed this on the Steph thread a week or two ago, I think.

    I think they'd do better to have no more than two in Gotham with Batman at a time (interacting with him in any significant sense or being funded by him rather than just being in city), and only one minor at a time - the others growing up and moving on as time passes. And not being so tied to Bruce or wearing his emblems on their outfits or whatnot. To me, spinning them off well is the key. Dick was done well the Titans and even his early Nightwing-solo-era. Tim was pretty good before his dad was killed. Steph was more Tim's supporting cast and Batfamily-adjacent back then. Helena Bertinelli never needed to be part of the Bats, IMO (maybe a holdover from Helena Wayne?). Duke doing more separate from Bruce and with his own friends would be nice, but I guess that won't happen (his mini seemed to set up for it - did it not sell well). I'd have just had occasional crossovers where he worked with Tim or Damian, but not so much with Bruce.

    One problem with Bruce's kids/proteges to me is that they aren't allowed to grow up, and they very often aren't allowed to measure up. And they have to stay subordinate to him. It didn't always seem like it was going to be that way, but certainly has been for the last 20 years, and maybe even since the COIE-rewrite of Dick becoming Nightwing and the resurgence of his I-don't-measure-up or Bruce-doesn't-see-me-as-capable issues. I really do think Barbara's character was harmed by rewriting her into a protege of Bruce's, too. Actual de-aging with reboots doesn't help.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 09-04-2019 at 11:24 AM.

  14. #1619
    Is The Best Monk The Red Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Uh... yes they do. What are you talking about?
    Outside of the regulars like Dick, Jason, Damian, Barbara and some others like Cassandra Cain, the quality starts to rapidly drop off. Some that once were interesting (Tim Drake) are now long overdue to be retired because they have very little to offer. By the time you get to the likes of Duke Thomas and Harper Row, there's barely anything of interest there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I disagree - if that "screeching" resulted in reduced sales, that does justify it.
    If Gotham Girl or Duke Thomas disappeared tomorrow, I guarantee you that sales would be barely affected. That goes for many other Bat-Family members.
    Last edited by The Red Monk; 09-04-2019 at 11:18 AM.
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  15. #1620
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I disagree - if that "screeching" resulted in reduced sales, that does justify it.
    And how many of them truly effect sales. Its not that the Bat family shouldn't exists, but that its too big. Even the ones that do sell just become more and more marginalized.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 09-04-2019 at 11:32 AM.

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