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  1. #1636
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I really don't know that he does. Not different enough in the current set up to really have many of them stand out from each other, at least, especially the further down we go to the newer characters. All the reboots and retcons definitely don't help, I think the likes of Tim and Cass were better off before all that and when the cast was smaller. Cass has had her dynamic with Bruce erased and now Babs is back as Batgirl, and Tim was better off when he was the only Robin and Dick was the only former Robin present. His decline started as soon as Damian was introduced and Jason came back as Red Hood, so he has a new Robin as competition but two former Robins to be compared to. And that's just all the Robins and Batgirls competing against each other before we get into the Azraels, the Batwomen, and the Huntresses.
    He does if you look into the character history and interaction the characters have had over the years. Bruce's relationship with Dick isn't his relationship with Jason, which isn't his relationship with Tim, etc. Ditto for the Batgirls.

    Tim was in a better place as Red Robin Post-Crisis then he was when the New 52 hit and he got shipped off to the Titans editorial office. It's been a struggle to recover him since then.

    Cass and Steph defintiely got screwed over by DC editorial and Babs becoming Batgirl again. Heck, in some ways Babs becoming Batgirl again kind of screwed herself over.

    There's only really been one consistent Batwoman for a long time. I don't think Helena Wayne had much of an impact in Gotham compared to Bertinelli so I don't think she's an issue. The Azrael most people think of is Jean-Paul.
    It all orbits around Batman, who is largely an independent character by himself and doesn't need many of these other individual pieces to work. They need him more than the reverse. Especially the likes of present Tim and Steph, Luke, Harper and Duke who don't really enrichen his character on this already crowded stage. Like is DCAU Batman any less of a definitive version of the character, if not THE definitive version, for having a much smaller Bat-Family?
    B:TAS is definitive in a lot of ways but it also didn't showcase the many ways the Batfamily evolved or changed over time.

    Like, to most fans now the lack of a proper Jason Todd or Red Hood would be seen as "less definitive." Or showcasing the Batgirl successions. Or Damian as Robin, even.

    Just as a lot of people see the DCAU as the definitive take on the DC Universe even when there was so much they didn't tackle or showcase. That's why we get different interpretations like Young Justice, Beware the Batman, or the Arkham games that are allowed to adapt that kind of stuff.

  2. #1637
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    I dont know, a lot of what new Bat family additions do is try to recapture familiar relationships of old.

  3. #1638
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I dont know, a lot of what new Bat family additions do is try to recapture familiar relationships of old.
    Well, there were rumors Harper was created because Snyder couldn't use either Cass or Steph and you can kinda see that, and Duke was there because he wanted to write a Robin-esque character that wasn't Damian.

    I think that's probably why both characters have struggled so much to find their own niche.

  4. #1639
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He does if you look into the character history and interaction the characters have had over the years. Bruce's relationship with Dick isn't his relationship with Jason, which isn't his relationship with Tim, etc. Ditto for the Batgirls.

    Tim was in a better place as Red Robin Post-Crisis then he was when the New 52 hit and he got shipped off to the Titans editorial office. It's been a struggle to recover him since then.

    Cass and Steph defintiely got screwed over by DC editorial and Babs becoming Batgirl again. Heck, in some ways Babs becoming Batgirl again kind of screwed herself over.

    There's only really been one consistent Batwoman for a long time. I don't think Helena Wayne had much of an impact in Gotham compared to Bertinelli so I don't think she's an issue. The Azrael most people think of is Jean-Paul.
    But I think a lot of that is due to all of these characters not really meant to be around at the same time in specific forms, which is why the issue of bloat is really bad now compared to even just the early 2000s. Stuff like Jason's death and Babs as Batgirl were in the history, but were in the past and now Tim was Robin and there was only one other Batgirl. Now, Babs is back as Batgirl without really any history or role to make Cass and Steph distinct.

    Tim fared better then compared to the New 52, but that's not saying much. Red Robin is the dumbest possible name they could give him and just SCREAMS "we can't call him Robin anymore, but we already have two other adult Robins, we're fresh out of ideas." Like there is fan demand to have all these characters around at all times and not always a lot of material or desire from DC to use them, so they are all just hanging around with not much else to do. Either in Batman's immediate orbit or elsewhere. And since Batman is a major player in the larger DCU and always has new stuff thrown at him, it's not as if he's ever hurting for material to interact with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    B:TAS is definitive in a lot of ways but it also didn't showcase the many ways the Batfamily evolved or changed over time.

    Like, to most fans now the lack of a proper Jason Todd or Red Hood would be seen as "less definitive." Or showcasing the Batgirl successions. Or Damian as Robin, even.
    That's because it came out before most of them were introduced, so it was utilizing everyone who mattered at the time. And Batman made his strides in other media, between the Adam West show, BTAS and the sporadic live action films and video games, either before or around the time these other characters were being invented and they developed their fan followings. He largely became the most popular superhero in the world on his own, which is why some fans (not all) see the most of the rest of the Bat-Family as tacked on extras rather than anything 100% necessary for Batman to work. Some of it more interesting than other parts, but extras nontheless. Bruce is a fully formed character there, he's largely the same if a little more miserable in the comics, and the new glut of characters aren't really telling us anything we didn't already know.

    Obviously their fans would disagree, but that's part of the larger debate. Does Batman benefit from their inclusion, or do they need him more than the reverse?

  5. #1640
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But I think a lot of that is due to all of these characters not really meant to be around at the same time in specific forms, which is why the issue of bloat is really bad now compared to even just the early 2000s. Stuff like Jason's death and Babs as Batgirl were in the history, but were in the past and now Tim was Robin and there was only one other Batgirl. Now, Babs is back as Batgirl without really any history or role to make Cass and Steph distinct.
    I think regressing Babs as Batgirl ended up being very problematic, especially when it ended up taking away Cass and Steph's entire history to boot. Heck, it took away some of Babs' development.

    Jason isn't an issue because he's so distinctive as a character. Even Tim as Red Robin felt more distinctive then the character he is now, especially since he was still primed to be Bruce's partner before the reboot.
    Tim fared better then compared to the New 52, but that's not saying much. Red Robin is the dumbest possible name they could give him and just SCREAMS "we can't call him Robin anymore, but we already have two other adult Robins, we're fresh out of ideas." Like there is fan demand to have all these characters around at all times and not always a lot of material or desire from DC to use them, so they are all just hanging around with not much else to do. Either in Batman's immediate orbit or elsewhere. And since Batman is a major player in the larger DCU and always has new stuff thrown at him, it's not as if he's ever hurting for material to interact with.
    Considering the situation he was in when he came up with the identity and the kind of character he was, I don't think Red Robin was a terrible choice in name. At least the material he was starring in was actually good.

    I think the lack of desire from DC is a major reason the characters or certain Batfamily members are floundering as much as they are. And DC Editorial's issues with legacy heroes.

    I think it's an exaggeration to say they're just carry-ons or just hanging around close enough to touch Batman's cape. Most of them are in limbo and not doing anything.
    That's because it came out before most of them were introduced, so it was utilizing everyone who mattered at the time. And Batman made his strides in other media, between the Adam West show, BTAS and the sporadic live action films and video games, either before or around the time these other characters were being invented and they developed their fan followings. He largely became the most popular superhero in the world on his own, which is why some fans (not all) see the most of the rest of the Bat-Family as tacked on extras rather than anything 100% necessary for Batman to work. Some of it more interesting than other parts, but extras nontheless. Bruce is a fully formed character there, he's largely the same if a little more miserable in the comics, and the new glut of characters aren't really telling us anything we didn't already know.
    BTAS came out in the 90's, so it was really just when they were all being introduced and utilized. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl had not been as relevant since then and Dick Grayson wasn't even Robin, even if he was still a focal character.

    I mean, if we're talking video games, the most popular Batman games came well after these characters were introduced. Heck, Babs' first appearance in the Arkham games is as Oracle.

    But those other characters can examine the and explore different or new facets of the franchise that weren't there before, or reach an audience that normal Batman stories can't. That's part of the appeal of creating new characters and diversifying the cast of characters in Gotham who can explore different facets of the mythos and appeal to different kind of audiences.
    Obviously their fans would disagree, but that's part of the larger debate. Does Batman benefit from their inclusion, or do they need him more than the reverse?
    It should be a symbiotic relationship. I don't think things have to be pragmatic enough that it's one over the other.

  6. #1641
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Red Robin had a place because there was no Nightwing.

    Harper Rowe was inspired by a cosplay at a comic con. Not to tell a Batman story. To tell a Harper story.

    Duke was made because Harper failed.

    Imo
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  7. #1642
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    BTAS didn't need the wider bat family to be definitive. In fact, to me it's definitive in how it kept the Bat Family to its most essential elements: Bruce, Dick, Babs, and a new Robin when Dick moves on to Nightwing. That's all you really need at the end of the day.

    Also, Timmverse Tim Drake ended up having elements of Jason Todd in his characterization anyway, right down to having a tragic encounter with The Joker.

  8. #1643
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Jason isn't an issue because he's so distinctive as a character. Even Tim as Red Robin felt more distinctive then the character he is now, especially since he was still primed to be Bruce's partner before the reboot.
    Jason is distinct, yes and I can see the appeal. I largely think he brings baggage and a dynamic with Bruce that I feel Bruce can do without, but I know I'm in the minority on that on these boards.

    Tim's not my guy so I don't see the appeal of him even when he's at his best, but I have no doubt he was better written then. But people expect Robin to be Batman's partner, and when e have a successful Robin in Damian, why wouldn't he be Batman's partner over Tim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Considering the situation he was in when he came up with the identity and the kind of character he was, I don't think Red Robin was a terrible choice in name. At least the material he was starring in was actually good.
    He's named after a restaurant. It's not a good name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    BTAS came out in the 90's, so it was really just when they were all being introduced and utilized. Barbara Gordon as Batgirl had not been as relevant since then and Dick Grayson wasn't even Robin, even if he was still a focal character.
    Yeah, but Babs as Oracle hadn't yet taken off like it would later on and there were no other Batgirls to choose from. BTAS ensured that a new generation of kids associated the name Batgirl with Barbara, and that feeds into other media portrayals. Dick is always used as the first Robin no matter what adaptation we're looking at, and adaptations seem to feel the need to condense the Robins down here and there. BTAS Dick used a similar costume to Tim, Tim was given Jason's backstory and a similar fate in the DCAU, (God help us) Shumacher's Dick was orphaned when his parents were killed by Two-Face and had some anger in him like Jason. The Nolan films, the definitive take for many modern audiences, just combined all the Robins into one general character and slapped a new name on him. Zack Snyder almost had Dick be the Robin that was killed, and while I'm glad that didn't pan out, I can kind of see the logic in it. "Batman and Robin" is essential for a take on Batman, not so much all of them. We will see what Reeves wants to do, but he is unlikely to squeeze everything in. YJ has all the Robins present, but can't focus on all of them in too much depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, if we're talking video games, the most popular Batman games came well after these characters were introduced. Heck, Babs' first appearance in the Arkham games is as Oracle.
    She also got the DLC to be Batgirl. I haven't kept tabs on the Arkham games in a while, but while they utilized more of the Bat-Family than most adaptations, they didn't use all of them. And even did some weird stuff like have Tim and Babs be in a romance because Batgirl loves Robin, doesn't matter which one apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It should be a symbiotic relationship. I don't think things have to be pragmatic enough that it's one over the other.
    It should be. I'm not so certain it always is. In general, I've found modern Batman to be a lot less engaging of a character even when he's surrounded by all these people. If anything he was more enjoyable back when Dick as his only Robin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Red Robin had a place because there was no Nightwing.
    Yep.

  9. #1644
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I haven't kept tabs on the Arkham games in a while, but while they utilized more of the Bat-Family than most adaptations, they didn't use all of them. And even did some weird stuff like have Tim and Babs be in a romance because Batgirl loves Robin, doesn't matter which one apparently.
    I just finished Arkham Knight last year, let's see what I can remember.

    Bat-Family:

    Oracle - tech support, plus rescue her
    Robin - team-up, plus rescue him
    Nightwing - team-up, plus rescue him
    Red Hood - no team-up, of course
    Catwoman - team-up, plus rescue her multiple times

    DLC:
    Batgirl, with Robin team-up
    Nightwing
    Red Hood
    Robin
    Catwoman

    All of these DLCs were really short though. In the main game it felt like the Robins and Catwoman were there just so you could keep rescuing them all the time, like playing as Batman meant babysitting the family in addition to fighting crime. Not one of them could get by on their own without Bruce coming to the rescue. IMHO, it was sexist that there were 3 Robins (all playable to some degree), and apart from a very short DLC of the past - no Batgirls (or playable Huntress or Batwoman). Only Catwoman.

    Other:

    Azrael - optional side mission

    Confirmed Existence, no cameos:

    Huntress - mentioned in a broadcast (in a prior Arkham game)
    Kate Kane - answering machine message inviting Bruce to her engagement party with Maggie, and checking-in on him (no confirmation of being Batwoman in the Arkham universe)
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 09-05-2019 at 07:04 PM.

  10. #1645
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Tim's not my guy so I don't see the appeal of him even when he's at his best, but I have no doubt he was better written then. But people expect Robin to be Batman's partner, and when e have a successful Robin in Damian, why wouldn't he be Batman's partner over Tim?
    I like Bruce and Damian but Morrison set the precedent that he and Damian didn't work well together as Batman and Robin. Especially compared to how well Damian gelled with Dick.
    Yeah, but Babs as Oracle hadn't yet taken off like it would later on and there were no other Batgirls to choose from. BTAS ensured that a new generation of kids associated the name Batgirl with Barbara, and that feeds into other media portrayals. Dick is always used as the first Robin no matter what adaptation we're looking at, and adaptations seem to feel the need to condense the Robins down here and there. BTAS Dick used a similar costume to Tim, Tim was given Jason's backstory and a similar fate in the DCAU, (God help us) Shumacher's Dick was orphaned when his parents were killed by Two-Face and had some anger in him like Jason. The Nolan films, the definitive take for many modern audiences, just combined all the Robins into one general character and slapped a new name on him. Zack Snyder almost had Dick be the Robin that was killed, and while I'm glad that didn't pan out, I can kind of see the logic in it. "Batman and Robin" is essential for a take on Batman, not so much all of them. We will see what Reeves wants to do, but he is unlikely to squeeze everything in. YJ has all the Robins present, but can't focus on all of them in too much depth.
    I know all of that, but I don't think that takes away from the value and necessity of the characters they didn't use or the aspects of them they didn't mine, especially when other adaptions end up using them to good effect, especially when they think traits that worked well for their successors are worth just giving to their predesccesors.
    She also got the DLC to be Batgirl. I haven't kept tabs on the Arkham games in a while, but while they utilized more of the Bat-Family than most adaptations, they didn't use all of them. And even did some weird stuff like have Tim and Babs be in a romance because Batgirl loves Robin, doesn't matter which one apparently.
    The Knight thing with Babs and Tim was weird but, again, there was more of an attempt there to use more then what previous adaptions had used, which is what I was getting at.
    It should be. I'm not so certain it always is. In general, I've found modern Batman to be a lot less engaging of a character even when he's surrounded by all these people. If anything he was more enjoyable back when Dick as his only Robin.
    For me it's just that modern Batman isn't as well written with them as he used to be. None of the strong interpersonal dynamics or relationships of the Batfamily are a thing anymore, it's all just vague, nebulous, relationships and Batman having inconsistent levels of closeness or relationships to his family.

  11. #1646
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I like Bruce and Damian but Morrison set the precedent that he and Damian didn't work well together as Batman and Robin. Especially compared to how well Damian gelled with Dick.
    That was just shortly after Bruce returned and before he got to know Damian. Tynion and Tomasi on Tec established that Damian and Bruce can and do work well as Batman and Robin.

  12. #1647
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    Also, Timmverse Tim Drake ended up having elements of Jason Todd in his characterization anyway, right down to having a tragic encounter with The Joker.
    Imo it is more like the Timmverse Jason Todd ending up with Tim's name.
    The DCAU Tim hasn't really any really elements of Tim that are not shared by all Robins.

  13. #1648
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    Post-Frank-Miller stuff, really. I was reluctant to blame Miller initially, since his version of Batman made sense and was crafted specifically for that world and figured it was just hack writers copying what worked with Miller without understanding why it worked, but then I saw Miller himself kind of pushing that same interpretation everywhere else and yeah, fuck Frank Miller for that. Problem is, it's entrenched too deep now. If you have Batman talking, laughing and politely conversing with someone like Superman, instead of acting like a standoffish dick who is one sentence away from telling Clark to go fuck himself for asking him how his day was or waiting for Gordon to finish talking to him instead of leaving while his back is turned without saying goodbye, then many fans will start raging that it's not "the real Batman". Even the most "kind-hearted" versions of Batman have unfortunately been infected by it and every other media version of Batman cribs from it. He's no longer a generally well-adjusted man who was inspired to take up his crusade by tragedy but grew beyond it like in the Golden/Silver/Bronze Ages, he's now an emotionally stunted weirdo who pushes people away because psychological issues. People would be confused nowadays if you showed them a scan of Batman walking down the street and greeting civilians from a Bronze Age comic or fighting crime during the day or goofing off with lighthearted jokes.
    I have a theory.

    In The Wonder Years, the main character tended to learn life lessons each episode - usually "don't be a dickhead" it seems. Unfortunately the way he learned those lessons tended to be for him to act like a dickhead - and then later realise his mistake. The net result of this - for me at least - was that this character was a complete dickhead. He was a bully, he got off with his brother's girlfriend, he regularly treated his best friend like crap and was generally an arrogant prick.

    I think the same thing might happen with Batman. Writers want to take him through an arc where he comes out lighter on the other side. So of course they have him acting like a dick for most of the story.

    It doesn't bother me as much with Batman though, but he works quite well as a dick.

  14. #1649
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Imo it is more like the Timmverse Jason Todd ending up with Tim's name.
    The DCAU Tim hasn't really any really elements of Tim that are not shared by all Robins.
    You are correct. The role was written for Jason [the writers found his story more interesting] but higher ups made them name the character after the current Robin at the time. Tim

  15. #1650
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    Have Batman and Green Arrow had a conversation about their similarities? If not that should be given at least a limited series.

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