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  1. #1696
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    I don't think Batman's marriage with Catwoman should last that long. Batman being that close to anyone for so long, especially somebody who stands for a lot of things he fights against does not seem like a good fit. Unless they both hang it up, which I don't want them to do.
    They will hang it up, dude. that's like a the end senario.

  2. #1697
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    Bruce, or any well trained male fighter, shouldn't get beat up by his female peers without them having an aide or him having a crutch. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be female street levelers, but there really isn't a good reason why a normal human being should be able to beat someone that is just physically stronger, faster, etc. than them if their skill levels are equal or comparable. I just don't think that Shiva or Black Canary alone should be able to fight Bruce and win. I could see if the female character is just significantly stronger/bigger than the average female hero but even then that is not likely either. I could see them holding their on in a fight but even then I don't think they should be able to beat him in a straight up fight.

    I like Batman and the Batfamily using guns and other similar weapons. I think it should be a rare occasion and not something he carries on him personally but I don't believe he should have an aversion to guns.
    Last edited by Lex Luthor; 09-26-2019 at 05:04 PM.

  3. #1698
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    With the exception of the Englehart/Rogers run on Detective, I just don't get Bronze Age Batman. Like, at all.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  4. #1699
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
    Bruce, or any well trained male fighter, shouldn't get beat up by his female peers without them having an aide or him having a crutch. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be female street levelers, but there really isn't a good reason why a normal human being should be able to beat someone that is just physically stronger, faster, etc. than them if their skill levels are equal or comparable. I just don't think that Shiva or Black Canary alone should be able to fight Bruce and win. I could see if the female character is just significantly stronger/bigger than the average female hero but even then that is not likely either. I could see them holding their on in a fight but even then I don't think they should be able to beat him in a straight up fight.

    I like Batman and the Batfamily using guns and other similar weapons. I think it should be a rare occasion and not something he carries on him personally but I don't believe he should have an aversion to guns.


    Black Canary and Lady Shiva are the best martial artists in the DC Universe bar none other than maybe Cassandra Cain, who is also a woman. If Batman is able to beat them in a fair hand to hand fight it's them that'd need the crutch, not him.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  5. #1700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post


    Black Canary and Lady Shiva are the best martial artists in the DC Universe bar none other than maybe Cassandra Cain, who is also a woman. If Batman is able to beat them in a fair hand to hand fight it's them that'd need the crutch, not him.
    Yeah, I think the only one of them who hasn't handed Bruce his butt in a straight-up fight is Dinah, but she would probably give him a good run for his money.

  6. #1701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post


    Black Canary and Lady Shiva are the best martial artists in the DC Universe bar none other than maybe Cassandra Cain, who is also a woman. If Batman is able to beat them in a fair hand to hand fight it's them that'd need the crutch, not him.
    If Batman is comparable to them in skill which he has been said to be one of the best in the DCU then yeah him being stronger and faster than them would mean he'd win in a straight up fight. Granted I don't think Batman would fight Cassandra or Black Canary unless he is not himself and vice versa but it just doesn't make a lot of sense that Shiva can beat him unless she is on some godly level or Batman just isnt that good which I don't believe either has ever been true.

  7. #1702
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
    If Batman is comparable to them in skill which he has been said to be one of the best in the DCU then yeah him being stronger and faster than them would mean he'd win in a straight up fight. Granted I don't think Batman would fight Cassandra or Black Canary unless he is not himself and vice versa but it just doesn't make a lot of sense that Shiva can beat him unless she is on some godly level or Batman just isnt that good which I don't believe either has ever been true.
    Batman is a good hand to hand fighter, but he doesn't hold a candle to Dinah, Cassandra, or even Shiva - and to assume that he's stronger and faster just because he's a man is laughable and sexist. I like the fact that there are a few characters, male or female, in the DC Universe that can beat Batman at hand to hand combat because it makes him that much more fallible and interesting. Batgod is the worst version of the character. It doesn't make him any weaker when other characters are more capable at one thing than he is, and honestly it just makes me sad when people have to prop him up just 'cause. If it were Catwoman or Riddler or even Green Arrow I'd agree, but Canary and Shiva? No. They're his superiors here.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  8. #1703
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    It's not even like he's never beaten Shiva before, he just doesn't need to be a better martial artist to do it.

  9. #1704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Batman is a good hand to hand fighter, but he doesn't hold a candle to Dinah, Cassandra, or even Shiva - and to assume that he's stronger and faster just because he's a man is laughable and sexist. I like the fact that there are a few characters, male or female, in the DC Universe that can beat Batman at hand to hand combat because it makes him that much more fallible and interesting. Batgod is the worst version of the character. It doesn't make him any weaker when other characters are more capable at one thing than he is, and honestly it just makes me sad when people have to prop him up just 'cause. If it were Catwoman or Riddler or even Green Arrow I'd agree, but Canary and Shiva? No. They're his superiors here.
    Its not sexist to assume a man is faster and stronger than a female hero if she doesn't have powers because men are stronger/faster than women. This is why I said if their skill is equal or comparable. Im not claiming to be an expert on the most skilled fighters in the DC universe but I have never known Batman to be a subpar or average fighter. He is always mentioned as if he is one of the best even if he is overrated. I said Shiva and Canary because those are the class of fighters I have seen him compared too and I have never seen anyone or anything that would suggest Batman isn't one of the best martial artists in the DCU.

  10. #1705
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's not even like he's never beaten Shiva before, he just doesn't need to be a better martial artist to do it.
    This, exactly. Batman is a planner more than anything; he's the strategist. That's what gives him the edge.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  11. #1706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Batman is a good hand to hand fighter, but he doesn't hold a candle to Dinah, Cassandra, or even Shiva - and to assume that he's stronger and faster just because he's a man is laughable and sexist. I like the fact that there are a few characters, male or female, in the DC Universe that can beat Batman at hand to hand combat because it makes him that much more fallible and interesting. Batgod is the worst version of the character. It doesn't make him any weaker when other characters are more capable at one thing than he is, and honestly it just makes me sad when people have to prop him up just 'cause. If it were Catwoman or Riddler or even Green Arrow I'd agree, but Canary and Shiva? No. They're his superiors here.
    Shiva and Cassandra I can buy but not Dinah. I have known Dinah to be a better fighter than Bruce and I don't believe for a minute that she can beat him in fight. Yes she's a great fighter but not better than Bruce.

  12. #1707
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Shiva and Cassandra I can buy but not Dinah. I have known Dinah to be a better fighter than Bruce and I don't believe for a minute that she can beat him in fight. Yes she's a great fighter but not better than Bruce.
    Didn't Dinah beat Shiva in a fair fight? Or down right close to it without killing her? Bruce can't beat Shiva so that might say something about where Dinah fares.

  13. #1708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
    Its not sexist to assume a man is faster and stronger than a female hero if she doesn't have powers because men are stronger/faster than women. This is why I said if their skill is equal or comparable. Im not claiming to be an expert on the most skilled fighters in the DC universe but I have never known Batman to be a subpar or average fighter. He is always mentioned as if he is one of the best even if he is overrated. I said Shiva and Canary because those are the class of fighters I have seen him compared too and I have never seen anyone or anything that would suggest Batman isn't one of the best martial artists in the DCU.
    Shiva has displayed feats of speed and strength equaling and even surpassing Bruce and there is nothing in the books suggesting Bruce is stronger and faster than Dinah. Even then, strength and speed are not the only deciding factors in a fight. Floyd Mayweather jr is an example of this when he moved to the the welterweight division. He lost the power he had at the lower weight classes, and on top of having hand issues, was able to continue his undefeated career based off of pure boxing skills, ring intelligence, and masterful defense.

  14. #1709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Shiva has displayed feats of speed and strength equaling and even surpassing Bruce and there is nothing in the books suggesting Bruce is stronger and faster than Dinah. Even then, strength and speed are not the only deciding factors in a fight. Floyd Mayweather jr is an example of this when he moved to the the welterweight division. He lost the power he had at the lower weight classes, and on top of having hand issues, was able to continue his undefeated career based off of pure boxing skills, ring intelligence, and masterful defense.
    I'm just bowing out of this conversation because its clear everyone is determined to completely misconstrue or understand what I am saying.

  15. #1710
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    I could beat Shiva with my car. Martial arts isn’t a superpower. She is one of the most overrated characters.

    To Lex’s point though, with technical skills being comparable, physical prowess being a factor isn’t that absurd of an opinion. That being said this is a world of fiction.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 09-26-2019 at 08:52 PM.

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