Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Restingvoice]

I'm just bowing out of this conversation because its clear everyone is determined to completely misconstrue or understand what I am saying.

You're talking about muscle mass that means someone with huge muscles like Bruce should be able to hit harder and take hits better than someone slender with less muscle mass, such as the female martial artists you mention, but martial arts isn't about just hitting or tanking.

Various martial arts are designed so you can take down opponents that are bigger and denser than you, like judo throw taking advantage of the opponent's weight, kung fu moves that aim to strike at the enemy's weak points like the neck, or jiu-jitsu that redirect an opponent's strike back to themselves.

[Pohzee]

IRL, there's a reason there's weight classes. Size and strength absolutely makes a difference.

But in a drawn medium where cartoon people are flying and 13 year old boys are talking on multiple 200lb+ henchmen, its kind of telling if that's where you can't suspend your disbelief.

[Agent Z]

I could beat Shiva with my car. Martial arts isn’t a superpower. She is one of the most overrated characters.

I mean, by that logic so is Batman.

[Frontier]

I could beat Shiva with my car. Martial arts isn’t a superpower. She is one of the most overrated characters.

To be honest, she could probably kick your car in half .

[phonogram12]

If DC's '70s kung-fu comics is any indication, the only people who should be able to beat Shiva, Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger in hand-to-hand combat is Shiva, Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger. As late as the '90s Batman's been beaten by brand new characters like the Silver Monkey. So while he's obviously no slouch, Bruce should maybe be #5 (if that).

[Aahz]

Didn't Dinah beat Shiva in a fair fight? Or down right close to it without killing her? Bruce can't beat Shiva so that might say something about where Dinah fares.

Bruce has actually beaten Shiva two times as far as I'm aware.
But I can't remember Dinah beating Shiva.
Dinah has in general not that many impressive feats as martial artist (at least not against established characters), especially not post flashpoint.

[Aahz]

But in a drawn medium where cartoon people are flying and 13 year old boys are talking on multiple 200lb+ henchmen, its kind of telling if that's where you can't suspend your disbelief.

But even there are limits, the fight between Damian and Ubu in the "Son of Batman" movie, just looks completely ridiculous.

And pre flashpoint Tim had his Bo-staff to fight against grown up men.

[Restingvoice]

But even there are limits, the fight between Damian and Ubu in the "Son of Batman" movie, just looks completely ridiculous.

And pre flashpoint Tim had his Bo-staff to fight against grown up men.

Oh, when Son of Batman setup Deathstroke as a resentful heir candidate to Al Ghul I just tuned out.

[phantom1592]

Dinah has in general not that many impressive feats as martial artist (at least not against established characters), especially not post flashpoint.

Yeah... when did Dinah get such a reputation? She used to be considered excellent martial artist trained in Judo... but I don't know when she got the credit of being one of the 'best in the entire world.'

Heck, she usually has powers to back her up. Even with the retconned 'trained from childhood by her mother and occassionaly Ted Grant... that's still just Boxing and Judo with a little dirty streetfighting. Not world class Ninja/Assassin level.

[Restingvoice]

Yeah... when did Dinah get such a reputation? She used to be considered excellent martial artist trained in Judo... but I don't know when she got the credit of being one of the 'best in the entire world.'

Heck, she usually has powers to back her up. Even with the retconned 'trained from childhood by her mother and occassionaly Ted Grant... that's still just Boxing and Judo with a little dirty streetfighting. Not world class Ninja/Assassin level.

She trained Young Justice in the cartoon and Barbara in New 52, so out of the Birds she's considered the best. I don't know in comparison to Batman and Shiva though.

Pre-Flashpoint, I think Shiva considered her a worthy opponent, and one of the candidates to replace her as Shiva... I think... I only skimmed. The other people she considered to replace her are Cass Cain and Connor Hawke.

That's all I know

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, same. Always got that Dinah was very good, but not top level (Shiva, Cass, etc) good.

How would people rank Jason Todd though? I understand his beating Shiva is controversial, but otherwise?

[Restingvoice]

Yeah, same. Always got that Dinah was very good, but not top level (Shiva, Cass, etc) good.

How would people rank Jason Todd though? I understand his beating Shiva is controversial, but otherwise?

I don't remember clearly but when he beat Ra's and Shiva he's using special method specifically to take down a powered up Ra's and a moved taught by Shiva. The controversial part for me is the way it's drawn and that Shiva in character won't teach something like that.

Taking everything I read into account, I see Jason as someone who doesn't view himself highly but actually really good. He doesn't think he can take on Batman without cheating, he's not as acrobatic as Dick and he looks up to Dick and Babs, but during his evil phase, he's a threat to Batman and Nightwing and he can handle Tim and Damian, but once he mellowed out he never goes all out on any of them like he used to do.

I think he should be about the average skill of the adult member of the fam. Bruce, Dick, Kate, and Babs. This tier tends to fluctuate in general. A lot of times Bruce is better than anyone, sometimes Dick is better than Bruce, sometimes Babs is better than Dick, depending on how they're written so it's more like a circle than a tier.

[phantom1592]

She trained Young Justice in the cartoon and Barbara in New 52, so out of the Birds she's considered the best. I don't know in comparison to Batman and Shiva though.

Pre-Flashpoint, I think Shiva considered her a worthy opponent, and one of the candidates to replace her as Shiva... I think... I only skimmed. The other people she considered to replace her are Cass Cain and Connor Hawke.

That's all I know

And that's the key I think. She can be very good. She can certainly have something to teach the kids... but I just don't think she should be put into the same category as people who have studied from a variety of masters and learned multiple styles to become the best of the best in the entire world. That's not who Dinah was. Heck a lot of the time when I was reading her, Ollie seemed a better fighter. Her main claim to fame was "I don't need rescuing... I can handle these punks myself!"

To put her into the top tier category... I don't know. It sounds Mary-sue to me. She's the star of the book so she's going to win all the time... but c'mon...

[Agent Z]

Yeah... when did Dinah get such a reputation? She used to be considered excellent martial artist trained in Judo... but I don't know when she got the credit of being one of the 'best in the entire world.'

Heck, she usually has powers to back her up. Even with the retconned 'trained from childhood by her mother and occassionaly Ted Grant... that's still just Boxing and Judo with a little dirty streetfighting. Not world class Ninja/Assassin level.

Boxing and Judo are not the only fighting styles she uses. She has been trained in a number of martial arts and Rabbit of the Twelve Brothers of Silk was one of her instructors. Dinah also tends to avoid using her powers against non-metas because of the damage they can cause and usually busts them out for more dangerous enemies. Remember that for a long time, she didn't even have her powers so she was relying her fighting skills and some equipment.

Another thing about ninjas and assassins is they are not primarily fighters. Their job relies mostly on stealth and killing and you don't need to be a good fighter to do that. Hell, if you're really good at being an assassin you don't even need to in the same room as your target.

[Agent Z]

And that's the key I think. She can be very good. She can certainly have something to teach the kids... but I just don't think she should be put into the same category as people who have studied from a variety of masters and learned multiple styles to become the best of the best in the entire world. That's not who Dinah was. Heck a lot of the time when I was reading her, Ollie seemed a better fighter. Her main claim to fame was "I don't need rescuing... I can handle these punks myself!"

To put her into the top tier category... I don't know. It sounds Mary-sue to me. She's the star of the book so she's going to win all the time... but c'mon...

That only happens in the Green Arrow comics and the Arrow show, specifically Winnick and Kreisberg which are considered to be poor showing of Oliver.

I mean, even if you want to question Dinah's level of martial arts skill, Oliver being better than her in that regard is questionable given he's known primarily as an archer