Controversial Batfamily Opinions

**CPSparkles** · 12-24-2019, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Tzigone

I disagree. Firstly, he did not convince himself Batman needs a Robin so he could join the gang. He set out to find Dick and to convince Dick to go back to being Robin again. That failed. I believe, but would not swear, that Dick initially brought up the idea of Tim being Robin. This is, of course, as it originally played out rather than anything said/retconned later.

And Tim was not detached and far less likely to think he knew best in the old days. He had a very different personality in the 1990s then in the 2005-2011 era. I would argue that having this role, having so many around him die, having writers decided he need to change absolutely messed him up, emotionally-speaking. He used to be a good deal healthier. Not necessarily when he first showed up (when he still wasn't detached), but definitely during the first 100 issues of his own comic. I definitely consider him, like Bruce to have quite emotionally "messed up" in some eras.

Stalking Batman and Robin - as far as I can tell, it's heavily fanon. I started a thread on it a while back. As far as I've been able to glean from his original appearance, he only followed Batman after Jason died and he became concerned about increased violence levels. All the other material he has seems to be newspaper and magazine clippings.

As for "Batman needs a Robin" - it gets attribute to Tim, because it's part of his origin story, but he's not the first to say it. I've actually discussed the difference in tone and implication in it's earlier usage before. I won't say this was the first time it was used, but it was close enough to Tim's debut to make me wonder if it was deliberate.
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I can't tell if this is something that has been put in deliberately but I still don't buy that Batman needs a Robin and the story's after Tim don't support that.

Batman need a robin can only be applied to Dick because Dick is the 1st family Batman had ever since then Batman has had a reason to come home at night he has had someone who he is responsible for. Batman did not need Tim Drake a random kid to be his light when he had a family so that was nonsense. that DC has since Retconed. batman's light is family

Tim was a stalker since he had photo evidence and newspaper cuttings of the duo. It doesn't matter that he had mostly newspaper evidence he was obsessing over the duo, collecting info about them and keeping a file. That is very obsessional Batman.

Tim when he was pitching to take the Robin role. Yes he went looking for Dick but he also every quality of Robin that he listed he followed up with demonstrating how he had said skill then In tec when he was forced to elaborate on why he went to Batman and Robin he said he wanted to impressive. When asked why it couldn't be Nightwing. he said it had to be him (Tim) he was the only one who could save batman. That's manipulative batman

Tim bursting into a grieving family and telling them what they need. Forcing his way in shows how detached he is. Shows how much of that Batman arrogance he has. He storms in believing that he knows better that Bruce, Dick and Alfred. that is un able to recognise social cues and crossing boundaries Batman

if that panel isn't deliberate then Batman really is the most busted and useless hero out. What kind of hero needs a young kid to rein him in? Suddenly Tom King's batman is overflowing with agency.

Tim has always had that sort of personality that doesn't take much to turn into the worst. And all the negative elements of it were present in his origin story.

**AmiMizuno** · 12-24-2019, 10:34 AM

I mean certain things in New 52 have changed certain things about certain characters

**Godlike13** · 12-24-2019, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy

Why wouldn't he? Bruce ain't a home schooler

He was like 18 when Bruce met him according the the new 52, and I recall he didn’t even live with him. The new 52 did some weird stuff trying to fit in all the Robins.

**Tzigone** · 12-24-2019, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by AmiMizuno

Why can’t the Batfam other than Bruce have relationships outside their own books last? Like Dick and Kori. Is it because they might have to appear more and more in Batman comics?

I don't think Batman is as much to blame for that one - and certainly not in that way. The great decline of NTT was a large part of it. When NTT was the big dog, it was fine. Then the built up reasons for a breakup. Then had the breakup. Then they had them get back together almost immediately. Not a fan of that decision, but I know many were. Then a lot of bad writing followed. Still, I guess ultimate breakup did come with failed wedding and Dick being closer to the Bats. I'd say the decline in the Titans franchise (and the rise of the Bat one) were a big part of why that happened. The idea the character of Dick Grayson would do better with Bats than Titans. Also, though that really came later, there were the de-aging or keeping-Bruce-seeming-young efforts and a married "son" would make him seem older (and grandkids totally out of the question).

But, really, sure Dick and Kory didn't work out. But has any other Batfam-with-outsider relationship even existed? The other Bat-characters came after the rise of the Batman franchise, and that probably plays in. I don't think it's because the new character would need to show up more in Batfam books. Honestly, it's more likely because Batman is such a powerhouse, sales-wise, that the other character would end up subordinate to Bat-family needs. And even the Batfam member - the other writer (even a team-book-writer) couldn't do what they want with them because Bat-editorial would have more sway.

That's not even just a Bat-issue. Shipping across "families" or even which each character has their own book doesn't really happen very often. No one wants someone else messing with the story they want to tell. I mean, when Dick and Kory were an item, they were both primarily Titans characters, neither being featured by different writers. When Dick and Barbara were an item, Chuck Dixon was writing both BoP and Nightwing. Whenever Catwoman gets her own series, she gets new love interests. Usually if Dinah and Ollie are each in their own book, they are broken up.

Tim was a stalker since he had photo evidence and newspaper cuttings of the duo. It doesn't matter that he had mostly newspaper evidence he was obsessing over the duo, collecting info about them and keeping a file. That is very obsessional Batman.

Keeping newspaper clippings of a relatively famous person is not stalking. It's a bit obsessive, but not stalking. More fanboy.

Tim bursting into a grieving family and telling them what they need. Forcing his way in shows how detached he is. Shows how much of that Batman arrogance he has. He storms in believing that he knows better that Bruce, Dick and Alfred. that is un able to recognise social cues and crossing boundaries Batman

I disagree. That's the opposite of detached. It's very, very emotionally-involved. And he didn't think he knew better than Dick. He thought (correctly) that Dick did not know what Batman was up to and that if he did, he would try to intervene.

Tim when he was pitching to take the Robin role. Yes he went looking for Dick but he also every quality of Robin that he listed he followed up with demonstrating how he had said skill then In tec when he was forced to elaborate on why he went to Batman and Robin he said he wanted to impressive. When asked why it couldn't be Nightwing. he said it had to be him (Tim) he was the only one who could save batman. That's manipulative batman

I disagree. Tim was straightforward and direct there. No game-playing, no secretly moving the pieces around. Sure, he wanted to impress his idols. But not to manipulate them, and I don't believe he was aiming for Robin. The really creepy part was trying to coerce Dick to give up his identity/llife in service to the Batman and Robin duo.

And Tim was way less brooding, and less obsessed with "work" in his first 100 issues of solo series. He ate pizza and hung out with friends and went to car shows and smiled and laughed and even slept regularly. He did not manipulate others, as a general rule, and certainly not his colleagues.

Tim was kind of creepy when introduced, particularly in regards to want Dick to give up his life. Also, he had disturbing notions of Batman's abilities (that ties into DC victim-blaming Jason). But when shifted over to his own series (really well before that), he was pretty awesome. For years. Then he became all emotionally detached and manipulative. Obsession can certainly be counted as an older trait - I don't think the other two can.

if that panel isn't deliberate then Batman really is the most busted and useless hero out. What kind of hero needs a young kid to rein him in? Suddenly Tom King's batman is overflowing with agency.

Batman has been a very busted hero many times. In different ways. A hero needing others to reign him in is a very common thing. And absolutely Robin - any Robin should stand up to Batman when he thinks he's wrong. It's something far too few of Batman's colleagues do. Sure, they say something occasionally. But generally, the ultimately fall in line an let him keep treating them all like dirt and stick around while he keeps doing whatever he pleases.

Batman need a robin can only be applied to Dick because Dick is the 1st family Batman had ever since then Batman has had a reason to come home at night he has had someone who he is responsible for. Batman did not need Tim Drake a random kid to be his light when he had a family so that was nonsense. that DC has since Retconed. batman's light is family

Even that's a retcon. He was emotionally fine back in the golden age and didn't need Dick to be there be okay. Nor did having someone at home make him take fewer risks. It was far healthier because they were together because they wanted to be. No adult should ever put that sort of burden of needing them on a child. And, of course, in post-COIE, Alfred was family. Not that Alfred has ever been decent at reigning Batman in (a reason I don't like him being there from the start). And Dick could not fulfill that role for Batman at the time for two reasons - firstly, because they were mostly estranged. Dick wasn't even there to be his "light." Secondly, and I think this ties in very much to Batman emotional-brokenness (of which I am not a fan), modern Batman cannot deal with peers. He too often demands to be in charge and reacts poorly when challenged. While Dick could theoretically choose to do as Tim wanted and go back to that "junior" role and so that he could fulfill that role of compatriot to Batman, it would be very destructive to Dick and a very poor choice. I think "Batman needs a Robin" in this context is very much a statement of Bruce's brokenness and his inability to deal with peers, meaning he can only have healthy relationships with those willing to take orders. When they get older and start to challenge him, the relationships fall apart.

I'm sure you've realized, I'm not much a fan of modern Batman's personality.

**AmiMizuno** · 12-24-2019, 01:47 PM

True. It’s better to have that never happen if it will mess up a writers story. Well the only way the ship survives is in outside media. Or if the get elsewhere stories.

**Zaresh** · 12-24-2019, 02:39 PM

May be relevant to the topic right now, but Artemis is coming back to RHATO, she's a Wonderfam character, and Lobdell seems to be wasting no time in adressing their blossoming relationship. They're a relatively well liked ship, so we may see how it all goes if other writers address that outside that book, if it actually ends being "something."

**The Cool Thatguy** · 12-24-2019, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by CPSparkles

Batman need a robin can only be applied to Dick because Dick is the 1st family Batman had ever since then Batman has had a reason to come home at night he has had someone who he is responsible for. Batman did not need Tim Drake a random kid to be his light when he had a family so that was nonsense. that DC has since Retconed. batman's light is family

Err, at the time, Batman had no real family.

Nightwing was a part of the Titans, and Babs was in the Suicide Squad as Oracle (and retired as Batgirl long before that).

More than that, Batman's bad behavior in the field was escalating as a result of losing Jason.

So yeah, Bruce needed someone to reign him in. Frankly, I liked Tim's intellectual approach/motivation to crimefighting vs. yet another dead parent.

**Tzigone** · 12-24-2019, 03:15 PM

More than that, Batman's bad behavior in the field was escalating as a result of losing Jason.

Though I've been told (have not read era between Jason and Tim) that his violence only started escalating when they decided to create a new Robin. Meaning a problem was created for the new character to solve rather than a new character created to solve an existing problem. Then again, Jason's violence/anger ratcheted up only after they decided to kill him.

Frankly, I liked Tim's intellectual approach/motivation to crimefighting vs. yet another dead parent.

I'm not quite sure I'd call Tim's motivation intellectual, but I did like when he had a living dad and stepmom (mom had to go bye bye immediately). Once he was spun off, he had to have his own supporting cast. I liked that, though. I liked him having other people in his life. I would say the relationship dynamics with Bruce were significantly different from what I saw from his earliest days to his own-title days. I preferred his own, but I read more of that. I like him having family outside the Bats (and he closer emotionally to both Barbara and Dick and even Alfred than Bruce during a lot of the Dixon era), and having to "serve two masters" in the sense that both Bruce and Jack had expectations of him. And Jack knew nothing of Bruce's, of course, so was quite upset and worried, even angry, when his teenager disappeared for days (over a week, on at least one occasion) at a time and then would either refuse to tell him where he'd been or lie about it. But I think that's reasonable anger. And then Tim would lash out because Jack wasn't there so often when he was younger and now he cares. But I always did have the sense they loved each other, and it was interesting to watch them succeed sometimes and flounder others in building/maintaining that relationship.

**AmiMizuno** · 12-24-2019, 03:44 PM

It’s going to be interesting to see Diana with The outlaws

**Fergus** · 12-24-2019, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy

Err, at the time, Batman had no real family.

Nightwing was a part of the Titans, and Babs was in the Suicide Squad as Oracle (and retired as Batgirl long before that).

More than that, Batman's bad behavior in the field was escalating as a result of losing Jason.

So yeah, Bruce needed someone to reign him in. Frankly, I liked Tim's intellectual approach/motivation to crimefighting vs. yet another dead parent.

I left home years ago so does that mean my folks don't have a family? Going away to uni or moving out due to marriage doesn't mean that one is no longer family.

I mean right now does that mean that Damian is Bruce's only family since he's the one who lives with him? No

And in what stories did we see Tim's presence act as a counter in the decades that Tim was Robin till Damian? What stories do we have that support this promotional line?

What stories did we see Tim reigning Batman in? Zero

I'll tell you what we had, a few stories where Tim would offended or uncaring whenever Bruce so much as brought up Jason or set off by things that reminded him of Jason.

Tim Drake I feel corrupted Robin. No longer was it to give purpose and direction to a child who needed saving but it was co opted by a kid from the surbarbs who was bored and had a Robin obsession.

Robin is an ethical and moral minefield but Bruce taking on a child that had zero connection to the lifestyle. A kid from a stable home and putting him in danger every night without his folks being aware of the set up is one of the worst things Batman has ever done.

**The Cool Thatguy** · 12-25-2019, 05:19 AM