Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[AmiMizuno]

Yea, it's more Bruce's fault. Dick does have his own life. I feel that the writers are also the problem. Damien's personality can get better but than it's worst off.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Damian living with Bruce or not currently depends on the writer. Some write them as estranged, in other issues Damian is working at his father's side. Damian still being there after the two months timeskip during Detective Comics 1017 implies that Damian shows up at home more regularly again.

"Corrupting" the Robin role? That's a weird way to read that storyline. Damian got the role because Dick saw Tim as an equal and he wanted to give Damian a place in the family so he would feel more secure. Without that he couldn't have begun to help the boy. And Robin should be about helping the child, not Batman.
A lot of Damian's behaviour comes down to a deep insecurity about family, trust and love, which makes absolute sense when you consider how he was raised. If you don't understand that you don't get Damian. Damian didn't get the role because he yelled the loudest, he got the role because Dick and later Bruce wanted to help a ten year old who wanted to leave his life as an assassin behind.

Going into the field unsupervised is more Bruce's fault, don't you think?

I think corrupting is fair.

He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.

When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump

[SiegePerilous02]

I think corrupting is fair.

He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.

When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump

"Corrupting" is not fair. Who says passion for justice or personal trauma are the only prerequisites for becoming Robin? He does not get it because of daddy, daddy had no part to play in giving it to him. It came from Dick Grayson, the real Robin, who is Bruce's #1 heir despite not having a blood relation to him. He was given the identity by Dick in an attempt to straighten the brat out, and it worked in many ways. He didn't corrupt the identity, but it did influence him.

He's also just a more interesting alternate Robin to Dick than Tim is. They actually have contrasting personalities and a well earned closeness after working as Batman and Robin with a rough start. I don't think his death is treated as more of a big deal than Jason. After all, we've had years of tedious angst from Bruce about Jason's death whereas Damian was only dead for like a year, and Jason was long since alive again at that point.

[king81992]

I think corrupting is fair.

He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.

When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump

If anyone 'corrupted the Robin role' it was Bruce. All of the Robins after Jason inherited more of Bruce's negative traits(Dick has some too, but his 'negative Batman like traits' have been downplayed in recent years).

[dietrich]

I think corrupting is fair.

He's Robin because if his blood, not because of a passion for justice or personal trauma. His death was treated as somehow worse than that of Jason's because he was Bruce's biological son, and I can't think of any story that focused on how being Robin is a responsibility not birthright.

When Tim was Robin, he had to earn it. Damien gets it because of his Daddy. He's kung fu Eric Trump

This is a stand taht I've seen amongst fans who like to ignore canon.

Damian before he became Robin already rejected his mother's side and was in Gotham as ahero. He was already already actively displaying his passion for Justice by endangering his life for others including saving Tim Drake.

Dick Giving Robin to Damian was doing exactly what the role was created for. Giving direction to a lost child.

Saying that personal trauma had nothing to do with Damian becoming Robin is so insane I don't even know whether you are being serious.

Your comments are more personal bias rather than what actually happened. Bruce sent Damian home, Damian went out his way to prove himself including saving a Batman then Alfred and Dick came to his rescue. That sounds very familiar to me. That sounds just like Tim Drake.

Yes Damian in Batman and Son believed Robin was his Birth right but Damian didn't become Robin in Batman and Son. Damian by the time he was working as solo hero in Gotham wasn't even trying for Robin, He was doing it because it was what he believed was right.

[dietrich]

That depends. Did you join another successful franchise when you left? Because otherwise, it's not really compatible



Damian moved out a while ago, actually. Just sayin'.



Well, Batman was going over the edge before Tim and straightened out after, so it looks like it worked. And Jean Paul 'firing' Tim showed that he was a moderating effect on the Bat



Every Bat sidekick did the same, Tim was just the first. And Tm's trait was being emotionally balanced, so it worked.



No, the one who corrupted it was Damien, who is allowed to treat the role as his because of his birth right. Who combines the worst traits of Jason and Dick, yet still gets to go into the field unsupervised.

Tim wasn't a rehash, he brought a sense of justice to the role that lacked personal tragedy

The worst traits of Jason and Dick huh and none of Tim's. Figures.

[dietrich]

Not so controversial opinion but it's about time Robin fans stop hating on replacements.

[Tzigone]

Not so controversial opinion but it's about time Robin fans stop hating on replacements.

Probably no controversy here, but I think the setup with regards to Damian replacing Tim was pretty much designed by DC in a way that couldn't help but make fans feel toxic. Dick's original exit and the introduction of Jason was much better for not splitting fanbases. Other splits came later for other reasons. I feel the current writing with Selina is apt to make people who weren't already big fans dislike her and the 'ship, too. I do think when one character has things/importance taken from them (either in-universe or from a meta perspective) for the sake another, it's going to make some fans of lost-something-character feel negatively towards gained-something character, whether or not that is rational. And since DC seems too often to view Robin-hood (or other same-name-heroes) as a zero-sum game, it happens a lot that one is diminished to further another.

Also, thought I know it will never happen because of business reasons, I'm much more a fan of each hero having their own superhero identity and not inheriting them from others. I think it would cut down on intra-fandom rivalries and toxic behavior a lot.

[dietrich]

Probably no controversy here, but I think the setup with regards to Damian replacing Tim was pretty much designed by DC in a way that couldn't help but make fans feel toxic. Dick's original exit and the introduction of Jason was much better for not splitting fanbases. Other splits came later for other reasons. I feel the current writing with Selina is apt to make people who weren't already big fans dislike her and the 'ship, too. I do think when one character has things/importance taken from them (either in-universe or from a meta perspective) for the sake another, it's going to make some fans of lost-something-character feel negatively towards gained-something character, whether or not that is rational. And since DC seems too often to view Robin-hood (or other same-name-heroes) as a zero-sum game, it happens a lot that one is diminished to further another.

Also, thought I know it will never happen because of business reasons, I'm much more a fan of each hero having their own superhero identity and not inheriting them from others. I think it would cut down on intra-fandom rivalries and toxic behavior a lot.

And before that the way they set up Tim on victim blaming Jason.
That doesn't mean that fans should wallow in toxicity especially when the company after faltering is making efforts to make certain replacements stand and progress. Not like Jason who's been stuck to Lobdell with editorial not making any effort to promote the character.

Actually fans can wallow if they feel like it but the truth is attacking Damian and Duke hasn't resulted in anything positive.

As a Damian fan I've made my peace that He's role is one that gets passed on. He's not Dick Grayson so he's not indispensable or irreplaceable. I can only hope that when the time come for him to be replaced that he's given the Tim Drake rather than the Jason Todd treatment/opportunities.

[phantom1592]

The really creepy part was trying to coerce Dick to give up his identity/life in service to the Batman and Robin duo.

meh... In my mind it's like trying to convince a musician that went 'solo' that he was better off getting the band back together. Who DIDN'T want the Beatles back together? Or Simon and Garfunkle or any of the other great duo's where one guy wanted to go solo... but separately they just didn't have the magic that they did together.

And I always point out that 'Nightwing' could easily have just been a phase. Robin was as much his own personal identity as Nightwing was. Earth-2/Golden Age Dick Grayson rode that Robin identity long into adulthood and kept close ties with Bruce. For all we know he had a few years there where he changed his name too and then came back to Robin :P In Tim's mind he wasn't trying to regress Dick or take his identity/life... he was trying to remind Dick who he really WAS.

Potentially misguided... but not really 'creepy'.

[Tzigone]

We'll have to disagree on that (at least until I re-read and have a different perception or found I've remembered details). He wanted Dick to permanently leave the Titans (at least not be there full time) and move cities.

What he expected of Dick was not just go back to using the identity of Robin, but to go back to the role he had when he was younger. Maybe he didn't get what that meant - Dick's comment about going back to being 13 should have tipped him off, but Tim was already fixated on his idea of Dick being Robin again.

That he pressed after Dick decline was the part that bothered me.

meh... In my mind it's like trying to convince a musician that went 'solo' that he was better off getting the band back together. Who DIDN'T want the Beatles back together? Or Simon and Garfunkle or any of the other great duo's where one guy wanted to go solo... but separately they just didn't have the magic that they did together.

Yeah, but that's all of us putting what's best for us above what's best for them. And it's an insult to Dick as Nightwing so he didn't measure up to B&R to me. And to Jason as Robin, but that was typical for DC at the time.

Also, it's putting the band/team above the people in it. Fine to do on a message board, but insulting to one's face. Completely disregards any personal feelings. He didn't seem to see Dick as an individual to me. Just as Robin and used-to-be-Robin and in terms of what he could do for Batman.

EDIT: Which is another thing: Tim kept talking about how Dick could be what Batman needed by going back to being Robin. What Dick needed didn't even figure in. Didn't seem to even cross Tim's mind. Batman and Robin is symbol him. He wants that symbol fulfilled, he wants it to hold the meaning he thinks it should. Whether or not it's actually beneficial to Robin doesn't play in - on whether it's beneficial to Batman (and to Tim's needs).

I'm also influenced by Tim a little later (if I'm remembering correctly - been a while since I read) thinking how Bruce is different than Dick and with Bruce (Batman) here, nothing will happen to him (Tim). Very unhealthy and inaccurate. Very scary way for a junior hero (or any hero) to be thinking. What's worse, is I think we're maybe meant to think of it as actual Truth. And that the reason Jason died was disobeying/being separated from Batman, and so Tim won't disobey and so it's okay for Batman to have another kid sidekick after the last one died. But, either way, it, to me, contributes to the same inaccurate/unhealthy view of Batman that early Tim had. Thankfully, he largely got past that soon enough.

[ChaosIncarnate]

Harvey Dent is a boring character post transformation, and is better off dead. The only writer to do anything interesting with him post transformation is Greg Rucka.

[nhienphan2808]

I feel like many people always referenced Golden Age Batman and Robin just being Robin in regards to Nightwing not able to be what it could potentially be, that it was "a phase", WITHOUT any context. The thing is, any later Bruce after GOlden Age Batman, was simply not that man. Golden Age Batman let Dick Grayson be free to be who he is' He was able to have fun and go solo, made more appearance than his Batman. Robin back then was big. When he was being a kid and rebelious, Golden Age Bruce understood and never act fearful, bitchy or replace him IMMIDIATELY. (i know there are golden Age issues where Dick was "replaced", but that's for character moments and study, and they are 1-issue stories where the replacements couldn't messure up to Dick) Robin back then stayed Robin because he was actually respected and his own hero.

As soon as the Silver Age rolled around, when Bill Finger stopped writing Batman altogether, Bruce started to act like a different character. Under the comic code he was sometimes abusive and emotionally incompetent to Dick. In the Bronse Age, the Bat office boasted that they brought the Golden Age Batman back, but actually they never did. They used a younger, more idealistic and less pragmatic Bruce. ("i want to eradicate ALL crime." really? ) And Dennis Oneil straight up don't know how to write Robin. Robin was 1 year into Golden Age Batman. HOW did erasing him and making Bruce act like an ******* to him "bringing the golden age Batman back?" I dont see it. Most of the people who believed that or believed early Robin really did have no personality never really read Golden Age Bill Finger comics. And those weird Jason origins didnt even bother me as much as the fact alongside it that they tried to make readers forget about the first Robin by replacing him.

It was because of the Silver Age camp and Bronze Age underulterisation that Robin faded away. Dick was no longer secure in that mantle. It's in character that he felt like he had to make a new one for himself. Essencially, NTT Nightwing was the return of the golden Age Dick Grayson after the camp dragged him for more than a decade, and it was a real return in personality and characterization, more so than Bronse Age to Golden Age Batman like DC loved to boast to us.

[Gotham citizen]

Give a medal to nhienphan2808.

[Sergard]

Not so controversial opinion but the Robin fandom is hella toxic and it's about time Fans stop hating on replacements

It's about time fans stop hating in general.
This also includes Damian Wayne fans hating on Tim Drake.
This year I've seen some ridiculous comments about Tim in the Damian Wayne Appreciation thread - and I've seen some ridiculous comments by Damian Wayne fans in the Tim Drake appreciation thread. I'm so tired of this stuff - and I don't even like Tim! It's the same - again and again. Everyone is angry and is getting angrier.

Personally, I'm neither a fan of Tim nor Damian. Maybe I like Damian a little less nowadays because he's done horrible stuff that triggers me hard, but all in all I'm glad I don't have to pick sides in these childish "discussions" between Tim Drake and Damian Wayne fans.

What's the point of discussing characters when fans only emphasize the good qualities of their favorite character and exaggerate the bad qualities of the other character?