Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Zaresh]

Doesn’t Jason pull magic swords out of thin air? Not that I have preference for realness one way or the other, but Jason’s story has become the most ridiculous out of all of them has it not?

You have a problem with some magic swords, in the DCU?

What about magical water pools that heal all illness and can even bring back the dead to life?
Or intergalactic multiverse hopping in some dimensional apocalypse.
Edit: or Batman travelling across time from eons before because some god pushed him down there.
Or some trained mute assassin who can read people's movements as if they were their minds. Because her very special training and lineage.

The whole Batman franchise if full of these ridiculousnesses. I don't have any problem with Jason embracing his more pulp soul, something Batman forgot long ago. Because the all-caste are that: a pulp story at its core, with some mystics and magics and action and adventure, mixed with its hardboiled vigilante heart. Edit: and this take hasn't even been a first for Lobdell. You can argue that Countdown was already playing some pulp tropes, which is fair, because they were the Challengers, or meant to be.

Edit: I mean, I get why some people dislike the idea. But it's not even a ridiculous one, given some of the stuff that you get to read in the superheroes of the DCU nowadays. Look at Metal, for example. Or some of Morrison's stories. They take the hero genre to its limits.

[Sergard]

I love Jason's swords - I love the whole All-Caste aspect. But I'm also a sucker for stories like that.

@Godlike13: The swords and the ability to manifest them were given to Jason. Jason wasn't born with any magical powers and he still has none. Maybe that's confusing you.
It's not any different from receiving a Lantern ring or Wonder Woman granting someone the power to use her lasso. Owning a magical weapon doesn't turn the owner into a magician.

[SiegePerilous02]

@Godlike13: The swords and the ability to manifest them were given to Jason. Jason wasn't born with any magical powers and he still has none. Maybe that's confusing you.
It's not any different from receiving a Lantern ring or Wonder Woman granting someone the power to use her lasso. Owning a magical weapon doesn't turn the owner into a magician.

But that also doesn't make him any more real or serious than the other Robins. He's just as unrealistic as them.

I think it's the story of his death (which could be any sidekick) that's uncomfortably real and had a negative impact on the mythos surrounding it.

[lemonpeace]

I love Jason's swords - I love the whole All-Caste aspect. But I'm also a sucker for stories like that.

@Godlike13: The swords and the ability to manifest them were given to Jason. Jason wasn't born with any magical powers and he still has none. Maybe that's confusing you.
It's not any different from receiving a Lantern ring or Wonder Woman granting someone the power to use her lasso. Owning a magical weapon doesn't turn the owner into a magician.

the initial bronze All-Blades were physically given items but the current ones he wields are something he achieved. He can manifest them from his soul, that's a magical ability. Does that make him a magician or a mage or a sorcerer? not even remotely, but yanking swords from your soul is straight up a supernatural skill. it's more like John Stewart BEING a power ring than someone receiving a power ring.

[Darkcrusade25]

Cass should be shelved if DC still ignores their Batgirl history post DDC. Bendis has brought up Steph referencing herself as Batgirl in YJ but it seems like Cass doesn’t get too much development unless it involves her mother.

[Godlike13]

You have a problem with some magic swords, in the DCU?

What about magical water pools that heal all illness and can even bring back the dead to life?
Or intergalactic multiverse hopping in some dimensional apocalypse.
Edit: or Batman travelling across time from eons before because some god pushed him down there.
Or some trained mute assassin who can read people's movements as if they were their minds. Because her very special training and lineage.

The whole Batman franchise if full of these ridiculousnesses. I don't have any problem with Jason embracing his more pulp soul, something Batman forgot long ago. Because the all-caste are that: a pulp story at its core, with some mystics and magics and action and adventure, mixed with its hardboiled vigilante heart. Edit: and this take hasn't even been a first for Lobdell. You can argue that Countdown was already playing some pulp tropes, which is fair, because they were the Challengers, or meant to be.

Edit: I mean, I get why some people dislike the idea. But it's not even a ridiculous one, given some of the stuff that you get to read in the superheroes of the DCU nowadays. Look at Metal, for example. Or some of Morrison's stories. They take the hero genre to its limits.

I have no issue with realness in comics one way or the other, as I said. I wasn’t the one saying I need ‘realness’. I was just pointing out the disparity there.

[Zaresh]

I have no issue with realness in comics one way or the other, as I said. I wasn’t the one saying I need ‘realness’. I was just pointing out the disparity there.

Yeah, but saying that it's the most ridiculous isn't fair, I think. I mean, Cassandra's story is as wild as Jason's. Or Damian's.

Dick's, Tim's, Steph's, Bruce's, Kate's and Barbara's are pretty normal.

Edit: the only non "vanilla" parts in Jason's story and background in the current canon are, that he didn't stay dead (and that's still a mystery. Yep: he wasn't resurrected by a pit), and that he had trained with some mystical clan or magic and become what's an average mystic knight (you have Moon Knight or Iron Fist in Marvel, for example. Edit again: I'm trying to think of some in the DC, but I'm a Marvel long time reader and those are the ones that I remember better, sorry. Maybe Blue Beetle could fit, if you go the magic route with Jaime. Some of the Golden Age heroes, too). An average hero background, except for coming back from the death. Comprare that with Damian's and Cass' story and background.

I mean, in my opinion, at least.
(I don't mean to argue, just in case)

[Sergard]

But that also doesn't make him any more real or serious than the other Robins. He's just as unrealistic as them.

I think it's the story of his death (which could be any sidekick) that's uncomfortably real and had a negative impact on the mythos surrounding it.

I think there is a misunderstanding.
I wrote that I need some sort of realness and that I can't take Dick or Damian seriously.

The first point doesn't mean that the DC universe should be a copy of our world. There are aliens, magic and meta-humans in the DC universe. Those are the reality and physical laws that DC has decided for. So within the DC universe it's realistic that someone is granted powers by a Lantern ring, has a magical lasso or in Jason's case magical swords. The sort of realness I need/crave is more of an emotional kind and is rooted in a character's personality, how bad and good qualities are balanced, how they interact with others and how others interact with them and that they have to experience good and bad moments in their life. I love characters - even if it sounds sappy - who can touch my heart and who make me root for them that they continue their adventures, reach their goals and find happiness. That's the sort of realness I want to see and feel. Dick or Damian - and some other DC characters - can't convey these feelings to me. It's a 100% personal perception.

When I say that I can't take Dick or Damian seriously, this doesn't mean that Dick or Damian don't have serious or good moments. It means that I've experienced too many aspects of their characters that are unappealing to me.

These aspects can be part of their personality, backstory, the way they act in certain situations, how they treat other people, how they are treated by different writers, how other characters or even franchises are (mis)treated by those writers in order to push them as main characters - it even can be the fanbases that can make a character unappealing to me because they are - for my taste - sometimes too biased or too hateful towards other characters. Fanbases can be too demanding/too hypocritical, they can over-exaggerate good qualities of their favorite character and over-exaggerate bad qualities of other characters to make their favorite character look better. There can be too much fraction within a fanbase itself because fans want different things for their favorite character, etc.

And as already said, everything comes down to personal preference. Something I detest about a character can be celebrated by another person. That's why I decided to not give specific examples for Dick and Damian. There are enough people who have Dick or Damian as their favorite character or as one of their favorite characters. This forum is full of such fans - and I'm sure that those people love Dick and Damian as passionately as I love Jason or someone else loves Tim, etc. There is not a single character in the DC universe that's objectively the "best" character and "deserves" more love/popularity than an other. I also know that there are enough people who for example like Dick and Tim but don't like Damian and Jason. There are people who like Dick and Jason but aren't into Tim and Damian. There are Damian fans who only like Damian but appreciate Dick as Damian's second father figure, etc. One can choose a random selection of Robins and there'll be fans who exactly like those Robins only. No fan is "more right" loving certain characters than an other fan loving different characters.

And personally, I don't care for any "mythos". In my eyes, there is not just one universal meaning behind "Batman" or "Robin". Batman and Robin have changed over the decades and every Robin has brought their own interpretation to the table. It's up to readers to choose the interpretation that appeals to them the most. Some see Robin as a mantle for "lost" kids who need guidance, others see Robin as the "light" in Batman's life. Others see Robin as a story element to create adventures starring kid sidekicks. Some readers prefer fun and light stories, others enjoy some darkness and angst here and there, some want over-the top-fighting skills, etc.

[redmax99]

I like tim, tam. I think ric grayson story is ok because i like bea and ric togather and i think talia,jason hook up was hot. There i said it.

[Zaresh]

I like tim, tam. I think ric grayson story is ok because i like bea and ric togather and i think talia,jason hook up was hot. There i said it.

True to the thread. Definitely controversial XD.

[Godlike13]

Bea should be stuffed in a fridge...

[king81992]

Bea should be stuffed in a fridge...

I'd rather not turn Dick/ Ric into the next Kyle Rayner, a character who never recovered from his woman getting fridged. Everything that happened to Kyle after that was DC pretending he was going to be relevant.

[redmax99]

Bea should be stuffed in a fridge...

naw she might not be a hero but when cobb was beating dick she was trying to help. they semi jump cobb and still lost i respect her effort, she was attacking a train assassin for dick. now i just want to see will a dick and bea relationship workout when he gets his memories back.

[Godlike13]

Nevermind.

[redmax99]

to me they're the same person same body he just lost his memory it's like if ric commit a crime they both go to jail and dick gets his memory back there he' still be doing 5 years even though ric commited the crime