Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[dietrich]

Placing him anywhere never stopped them using Dick in Batman's story. He's supposed to be guarding Bludhaven these days too but he's still called to fill in as Batman when Bruce had to appear in court and then stayed long enough to be shot because Batman's sad.

When he's in Chicago he's moved back to Gotham to be a hostage in Forever Evil, and that's even farther than Bludhaven.

The early months of secret agent, he's not supposed to be involved because he's supposed to be in hiding, but even then Tomasi and Snyder managed to make his cameo in Robin Rises and Endgame, where the story of Grayson supposed to say that the first time he disobey order and goes to Gotham was the next year.

He's only not involved if they don't want him to be involved. It doesn't matter how far he goes or what's the situation.

Yep. I'm just wishfully thinking at this point.

Bludhaven citzen's matter just as much dang it!

[dietrich]

Going back to the original Bludhaven. The replace Nightwing could be a Ex cop Dick knows. One other things would be as Nightwing what would cause him to global travel a lot? I think it would be easy due to leads outside the town. Or work. The next question that is in important what would happen if there is no Nightwing? If there is no Batman the crime world will go crazy. Should the same be said with Nightwing?

It should be important what happens to the city without Nightwing just like if Batman or any other hero who protects suddenly goes missing. It's just that the batbooks ignore it.

Currently in Nightwing, the city felt the loss which is why the group The Nightwings took it on themselves to protect the city in his absence.

[Zaresh]

I agree with everything, especially that Jason wouldn't kill as Batman out of respect for Bruce (But he would probably also do everything to avoid this "honor".)
General audience wouldn't like to see anyone other than Bruce as Batman in the main universe, myself included.
I personally believe that it's a better idea to permanently replace Bruce as Batman in an elseworlds story or on another earth in the multiverse.
At least in main continuity I'm not a fan of adult heroes/vigilantes, etc. throwing away their own personal identity, that they have used for years, to take over the identity of someone else. It's nonsensical.

Of course, I think Jason would prefer to not wear those shoes; but if he had to, because the circumstances require him to do so, I think he would.

General Audience doesn't really mind if DC replaces Bruce in the main Universe for sometime as shown by the success of DickBats and the sales of JimBat.

A small minority will complain of course but if the story is good then they fall in.

I don't know about Jim as Batman, but I think DickBats worked well, and was so liked in the end, because two very strong reasons. One: because it was a fun, really fun read. It was fresh, it was balanced (good team dynamic, beside others things), has a good pace, and was well written. And two: it wasn't mean to last long. Everyone new that Bruce would come back eventually, as he did. I didn't read it at the time, but I remember people in my country forums—when it started— being as much against it as they were against Grayson; but when the run was finished, people had enjoyed it so much that they wouldn't mind more of it.

What I mean is, even when an idea doesn't look like is going to be well received, even if when it is not well received, it may work and be well liked in the end. It depends on a bunch of things.

I don't think that would be the case with Jason, and I don't think people would like if Bruce were permanently replaced; but I agree about that one of the reasons for a change to be accepted is that the story is good.

[Jackalope89]

It would take an awful lot for Jason to take up the mantle, even hesitantly. Like Bruce being done (due to age, death, injury, or some other reason), Dick being unavailable ("Ric", and the same as Bruce), and Damian either being too young or else unable too as well. Tim... Almost every time he becomes Batman, he seems to go dictator. Best to keep him away from the mantle. Whereas Jason was actually Batman on one Earth, and even a member of the Justice League. Take that how you will.

Dick as Batman at least makes some sense. Jim Gordon, not a good decision that one.

[Godlike13]

Jason as Batman but he doesn't kill. Whats the hook then...

[Zaresh]

Jason as Batman but he doesn't kill. Whats the hook then...

All that's behind that, precisely. The fact that he has conflicting feels, for example. Or the reflection on what's justice and what's vigilantism, or what's really his role in the system they've created in Gotham, how the people in Gotham see and perceive him, including the police and the rouges, how the JL sees him, or the remaining bats, his strugglings with his shortcomings, his past relationship with Bruce...

There's a lot of potential for a good story there.

[dietrich]

Of course, I think Jason would prefer to not wear those shoes; but if he had to, because the circumstances require him to do so, I think he would.



I don't know about Jim as Batman, but I think DickBats worked well, and was so liked in the end, because two very strong reasons. One: because it was a fun, really fun read. It was fresh, it was balanced (good team dynamic, beside others things), has a good pace, and was well written. And two: it wasn't mean to last long. Everyone new that Bruce would come back eventually, as he did. I didn't read it at the time, but I remember people in my country forums—when it started— being as much against it as they were against Grayson; but when the run was finished, people had enjoyed it so much that they wouldn't mind more of it.

What I mean is, even when an idea doesn't look like is going to be well received, even if when it is not well received, it may work and be well liked in the end. It depends on a bunch of things.

I don't think that would be the case with Jason, and I don't think people would like if Bruce were permanently replaced; but I agree about that one of the reasons for a change to be accepted is that the story is good.

Yeah a good story is important as is the legitimacy of the character's right to inherit the role in the audience's mind.

Bruce won't be replaced in main universe. That's not financially smart.

When The Death of Bruce Wayne was announced a lot of the outrage was that fans genuinely thought it would be permanent. Now everyone's using Morrison's guideline for Batman. Death and Rebirth without getting it but back then it was a shock. No one knew how long he would be dead especially since Morrison had such a long term contract.

DC should do a Spiderverse type story or show with Batman showing Bruce, Dickbats, Terry and Damibats like Batman 700 did. Just to show the legacy progression.

A Spiderverse for Robins just so fans know there was more than one or two.

[Sergard]

I don't think any Robin has more or less potential to become a good Batman. It's up to the writer to lay the path, like Morrison decided to make Dick a good Batman.
Maybe another writer would have decided to make Dick fail as Batman - and it still could have felt like a natural progression.
So Tim being like a dictator in other universes doesn't mean that main continuity Tim or a Tim from another universe will go down the same road.

[Zaresh]

I don't think any Robin has more or less potential to become a good Batman. It's up to the writer to lay the path, like Morrison decided to make Dick a good Batman.
Maybe another writer would have decided to make Dick fail as Batman - and it still could have felt like a natural progression.
So Tim being like a dictator in other universes doesn't mean that main continuity Tim or a Tim from another universe will go down the same road.

It seems like Tim issues always tend to fall into his controlling and fix-it-all tendencies, but they are not worse than Bruce's. Or, heck, Dick's sometimes. Jason's controlling tendencies are fundamentally about having control over his own life alone, so that at least wouldn't be a problem for him (he would struggle with others). I agree with you here: if Tim's what ifs had shown him as they had, it's just because writers chose that way because they needed a villain. Same as how Morrison chose to force Jason as a villain for his story. That doesn't means that the character has to naturally progress always to that state and characterisation.

And for what's worth, a Tim was Batman in Batman Beyond. I didn't read that, but it's there.

[Godlike13]

All that's behind that, precisely. The fact that he has conflicting feels, for example. Or the reflection on what's justice and what's vigilantism, or what's really his role in the system they've created in Gotham, how the people in Gotham see and perceive him, including the police and the rouges, how the JL sees him, or the remaining bats, his strugglings with his shortcomings, his past relationship with Bruce...

There's a lot of potential for a good story there.

Jason as the new Batman but doesn’t kill, would be like Dick as the new Batman that doesn’t smile. Take away the biggest thing that would make the idea of him as the new Batman new and different, then what’s the point. All those questions you propose become far more complicated and interesting if Jason is actually doing something that Bruce didn’t do. Something that certain people and likes the JL might actually have a problem with.

[Sergard]

Jason as the new Batman but doesn’t kill, would be like Dick as the new Batman that doesn’t smile. Take away the biggest thing that would make the idea of him as the new Batman new and different, then what’s the point. All those questions you propose become far more complicated and interesting if Jason is actually doing something that Bruce didn’t do. Something that certain people and likes the JL might actually have a problem with.

There's nothing new about a Batman that smiles. Pre-crisis Batman smiled a lot. Why are people forgetting that? Dick wasn't the first "happy" Batman.
There's also nothing new about a Batman that kills: Pre-crisis Batman, King's DickBats from an alternate timeline, Tim's Batman/Savior, the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman (I think), some evil versions of Damian too, other versions of Bruce etc.

[dietrich]

I don't think any Robin has more or less potential to become a good Batman. It's up to the writer to lay the path, like Morrison decided to make Dick a good Batman.
Maybe another writer would have decided to make Dick fail as Batman - and it still could have felt like a natural progression.
So Tim being like a dictator in other universes doesn't mean that main continuity Tim or a Tim from another universe will go down the same road.

No writer can make a fan feel like a replacement is a legitimate choice if they already have a character that they have their mind set on who belongs in that role.

A good batman isn't the same as a legitimate heir. This why some fans to this day have never accepted Damian as a Robin and why so many are asking why isn't Dick Replacing Batman in 5G and why No one why isn't Jim replacing Batman in 5G. One is a legitimate choice in the minds of fans the other isn't.

We already saw Tim as Batman in main Universe. He got stab by Jason and left for dead because he rushed into the fray. Damian had to go save him along with Squire.

[dietrich]

There's nothing new about a Batman that smiles. Pre-crisis Batman smiled a lot. Why are people forgetting that? Dick wasn't the first "happy" Batman.
There's also nothing new about a Batman that kills: Pre-crisis Batman, King's DickBats from an alternate timeline, Tim's Batman/Savior, the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman (I think), some evil versions of Damian too, other versions of Bruce etc.

Evil Damian? Is Jason evil because he occasionally kills? This is so strange to me when One character does something he's evil another then he's an anti hero. Batman666 who sole his soul to protect the citzens of Gotham . So evil.

No future Damian is evil fyi. I don't understand how some can read something and remember another.

[dietrich]

It seems like Tim issues always tend to fall into his controlling and fix-it-all tendencies, but they are not worse than Bruce's. Or, heck, Dick's sometimes. Jason's controlling tendencies are fundamentally about having control over his own life alone, so that at least wouldn't be a problem for him (he would struggle with others). I agree with you here: if Tim's what ifs had shown him as they had, it's just because writers chose that way because they needed a villain. Same as how Morrison chose to force Jason as a villain for his story. That doesn't means that the character has to naturally progress always to that state and characterisation.

And for what's worth, a Tim was Batman in Batman Beyond. I didn't read that, but it's there.

Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?

I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.

[Jackalope89]

Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?

I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.

We'll agree to disagree on that.

As for Jason, he likes to say he's "neither good nor evil", but he's still chaotic good. He just took in a bunch of wayward meta teens, gave the Su Sisters a legit chance of starting over, and found a good home for his dog, Dog.