Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes, this is a controversial opinion threat and I'm telling you why I don't think your reasoning for disliking modern Batman makes much sense. Batman has had many solo books and stories for years that have the same Batman personality problem you guys keep complaining about. In fact there are so many it would take forever to write them down so I only used recent examples.
And I'm not telling you to love the batfamily. I'm explaining to you why your reasoning is bad.

My reasoning is my own. His personality is a wider problem, but him gradually becoming more insufferable coincides with the Dixon days where the family started to get expanded. So for me, there are few examples of all these characters coinciding with a Bruce I actually like and I find a lot of them uninteresting even on their own.

[The tall man]

Not so for Superman and Wonder Woman, there can be considerable pushback from other fanbases about their strength.

And Batman gets pushback as the Batgod because he often punches above his weight class, often to the detriment of the super powered hero he takes out, who usually have to forget their skill sets to give him a fighting chance. A Batgod to an extent is needed to justify having him in the JL, which is why Morrison writes the best Bat-God. Because he wrote EVERYONE as a god in his JL run. And in his Batman run he demonstrated how Bruce's Bat-God traits in his own wheelhouse, but his ultimate plan to defeat the Hyper Adapter was still to bring it to the present day and have the JL take care of it. Which is still pretty badass on its own.

With regards to punching above his weight class I would say its because he out thinks his superpowered opponent. In a fight/battle between a superpowered person of average intelligence with no skill in tactics and strategy, and a non-powered person in top physical condition with genius level intellect and and expertise in tactics and strategy who wins? My money is on the guy who can out think, outwit and outmaneuver his opponent. And that is the definition of who Batman is and what he does. He plans, he studies, he preps. He knows everyone has a weakness and he finds it and exploits it. So I have no problem with him defeating individuals above his weight class because he works for it.

[SiegePerilous02]

With regards to punching above his weight class I would say its because he out thinks his superpowered opponent. In a fight/battle between a superpowered person of average intelligence with no skill in tactics and strategy, and a non-powered person in top physical condition with genius level intellect and and expertise in tactics and strategy who wins? My money is on the guy who can out think, outwit and outmaneuver his opponent. And that is the definition of who Batman is and what he does. He plans, he studies, he preps. He knows everyone has a weakness and he finds it and exploits it. So I have no problem with him defeating individuals above his weight class because he works for it.

Except a lot of his peers in the JL are above average in intelligence and no slouches in terms of skills, tactics or strategy, as are their villains. The worst examples are when they don't even both with the pretense of him planning, he just defies logic and does impossible things he shouldn't be able to.
Batman has no business doing stuff like out running Darkseid's Omega Beams or punching out the Cheetah with a single blow to the face (who has taken hits from Wonder Woman, nothing Batman does is going to be able to harm her).

Most of his strategies against Superman involve Kryptonite, and at this point Superman has more than enough experience surviving Lex Luthor, who is even smarter than Batman and actually murderous in intent, doing the same thing that Batman is kind of screwed if Supes ever goes full evil and stops screwing around.

[phantom1592]

Most of his strategies against Superman involve Kryptonite, and at this point Superman has more than enough experience surviving Lex Luthor, who is even smarter than Batman and actually murderous in intent, doing the same thing that Batman is kind of screwed if Supes ever goes full evil and stops screwing around.

YES!! Around the Batman V Superman came out I had similar discussions with my friends. Batman's all powerful tactics and genius plan to fight superman always seems to be... kryptonite and power armor... The EXACT thing that he's been overcoming for 80+ years now...

It's like Batman given enough time and planning came up with the sure fire way to beat Spider-man…. and decides 'Mechanical Tentacles!!! He'll NEVER be able to beat THAT!! :P

[Agent Z]

I've been saying that for years. Dick and Tim were great. I loved them... but pretty much everyone else took more then they gave. Batman used to be the the great detective using cutting edge tech... Then he started asking Oracle to remotely pick locks and study blueprints over his comms… He used to be the best fighter... then Cass came and took that title. Azrael was 'scary Batman' Spoiler was 'New Tim'. Eventually Batman became a shadow of what he should have been... just to give everyone else stuff that they could excel at.

Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is personal preference, but I definitely felt an extended family diluted the Darknight Detective.




DC wants there to be a Batman. Bruce Wayne would not. The only way 'New Batman' means anything... is if the rest of the city doesn't realize there IS a 'new' batman. They have to still be scared of the same old unkillable, inhuman, creature of the night that they always were... And of course they'd never fool Two-face, Penguin or Joker... so it's really just the petty thugs he wants the fear put into.

I just don't see Bruce ever planning or expecting for Nightwing to 'die' and Batman to keep going. He's always been focused on raising these kids to be their best possible and create their own identities. But adding in 'Unless I die, then someone else has to kill their own personal ambitions and keep mine alive.

That's just DC pushing their trademarks and $$$$. So IF it ever happened... somone certainly WOULD take the identity, but no, nobody SHOULD... and Bruce wouldn't WANT them to.

If the city knew Batman died.... they'd still be just as scared of getting tore up by Azrael, Arkham Knight, or Nightwing…Heck, if Green Arrow moved to town, they'd be just as concerned about an Arrow. It doesn't need 'Batman' specifically.

Bruce's detective skills have always been considerably overrated given the guys he usually deals with aren't known for their subtlety and in some cases like the Riddler, want to be caught. Also, good detective work is not a solo venture. It involves consulting experts in other fields.

And Bruce was never the best fighter. He was getting schooled by the likes of Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger long before Cass was ever created. Not that I understand why fans care about this so much when him being a detective is supposed to be what he's known for.

[Fergus]

I've been saying that for years. Dick and Tim were great. I loved them... but pretty much everyone else took more then they gave. Batman used to be the the great detective using cutting edge tech... Then he started asking Oracle to remotely pick locks and study blueprints over his comms… He used to be the best fighter... then Cass came and took that title. Azrael was 'scary Batman' Spoiler was 'New Tim'. Eventually Batman became a shadow of what he should have been... just to give everyone else stuff that they could excel at.

Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is personal preference, but I definitely felt an extended family diluted the Darknight Detective.

Tim Took a lot from Batman. The Detective who is at said to be on par or better than Bats. He builds super AI's and buildings that repair themselves. Sometimes he steals Batman personality. RR solo series he pretty much became Batman 2.0

[phantom1592]

Tim Took a lot from Batman. The Detective who is at said to be on par or better than Bats. He builds super AI's and buildings that repair themselves. Sometimes he steals Batman personality. RR solo series he pretty much became Batman 2.0

That took a lot of time, and I would argue it didn't REALLY happen until Damian took HIS role away. The Tim of the 90's and Dixon years shone on his own, but when he was Batman supported his character. His detective skills and computer skills and anything else was always credited as 'Having a lot of potential, and could someday in the future be the best...' As Robin, he always had a lot to learn. At least till they started breaking the character around OYL and Identity Crisis... Then by the time Red Robin came around, they had to amp everything about him just to try and keep him relevant.

But Tim as 'the perfect Robin', kept that balance of 'not as wild as Jason and not as skilled as Dick to a very 'human' level. He supported Batman without taking away from him.

Bruce's detective skills have always been considerably overrated given the guys he usually deals with aren't known for their subtlety and in some cases like the Riddler, want to be caught. Also, good detective work is not a solo venture. It involves consulting experts in other fields.

And Bruce was never the best fighter. He was getting schooled by the likes of Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger long before Cass was ever created. Not that I understand why fans care about this so much when him being a detective is supposed to be what he's known for.

Not really. Sherlock Holmes has always been the model for the 'perfect detective'. He's pretty much a one man show and someone to chronicle his adventures. Hercule Poirot, Jessica Fletcher, Sam Spade... I haven't read all their adventures but they set the film versions are them finding the clues and then determining what they mean. Maybe unrealistic in the real world, but in fiction... one man regularely does it all. The Genius detective is pretty much a whole genre now on Tv.

As for Best fighter, depends on who's writing him. In the first appearance of Shiva when she wanted to fight, he described it as it being like a gunslinger, and everyone wanting a shot at the best... and then beat her easily.

Whether he was the absolute bestest best puncher in the whole wide world is irrelevant, but he was certainly up there, and between his endless training, techniques, and tricks... he's always manages to pull off the win, and usually with just enough effort to make it an interesting story.

[Agent Z]

Not really. Sherlock Holmes has always been the model for the 'perfect detective'. He's pretty much a one man show and someone to chronicle his adventures.

Holmes is also not the ubermensch that fans have elevated him into. In the original stories Watson wasn't that far behind Holmes in the intelligence department and it was stressed that anyone could do what he did if they really put their minds to it.

Whether he was the absolute bestest best puncher in the whole wide world is irrelevant,

You're the one who said he was.

but he was certainly up there, and between his endless training, techniques, and tricks... he's always manages to pull off the win, and usually with just enough effort to make it an interesting story.

Bruce is still a great martial artist. He just has others that are equal to or better than him. And the number of people who can match or outfight him based on skill alone isn't even large.

[Godlike13]

That role was never HIS. He was an contributor but not its owner. Legacy giveth, legacy taketh away.

Also who gives a crap if someone can karate chop better. Martial arts is so overrated.

[Agent Z]

That role was never Tim’s. Legacy giveth, legacy taketh away.

Also who gives a crap if someone can karate chop better. Martial arts is so overrated.

Apparently not when it comes to Bruce.

[Agent Z]

Yes, this is a controversial opinion threat and I'm telling you why I don't think your reasoning for disliking modern Batman makes much sense. Batman has had many solo books and stories for years that have the same Batman personality problem you guys keep complaining about. In fact there are so many it would take forever to write them down so I only used recent examples.
And I'm not telling you to love the batfamily. I'm explaining to you why your reasoning is bad.

The funny thing is that the biggest victim of Bruce's abuse is Dick Grayson and the first instance of Bruce being abusive goes at least as far back as the Silver Age. The only thing reducing the Batfamily will accomplish is limiting Bruce's victim to one person.

To say nothing of his dickery to other superheroes like the Justice League.

[Gotham citizen]

You understand the writers got everything wrong, when the readers start to think the hero is an abusive character and his sidekicks are his first victims.

[AmiMizuno]

How different would things be if Tim was just not adopted but had his parents? I mean majority of the Batfam have their parents died or family die. In some timeline or another.

[RachelGrey]

Except a lot of his peers in the JL are above average in intelligence and no slouches in terms of skills, tactics or strategy, as are their villains. The worst examples are when they don't even both with the pretense of him planning, he just defies logic and does impossible things he shouldn't be able to.
Batman has no business doing stuff like out running Darkseid's Omega Beams or punching out the Cheetah with a single blow to the face (who has taken hits from Wonder Woman, nothing Batman does is going to be able to harm her).

Most of his strategies against Superman involve Kryptonite, and at this point Superman has more than enough experience surviving Lex Luthor, who is even smarter than Batman and actually murderous in intent, doing the same thing that Batman is kind of screwed if Supes ever goes full evil and stops screwing around.

I thought they did a great job in Batman Hush the animated movie. They showed how frightening it can be to fight Superman, he nearly killed Batman, if Clark hadn't woken up when Catwoman threw Lois off the building, Clark was just on the verge of killing Bruce. They really presented it that Bruce, even with Kryptonite was barely able to delay Superman long enough for Catwoman to get Lois.

[SiegePerilous02]

The funny thing is that the biggest victim of Bruce's abuse is Dick Grayson and the first instance of Bruce being abusive goes at least as far back as the Silver Age. The only thing reducing the Batfamily will accomplish is limiting Bruce's victim to one person.

To say nothing of his dickery to other superheroes like the Justice League.

Beyond the typical cartoony Silver age dickery (which is applicable to almost every character, Dick Grayson included), Bruce's abuse towards Dick is mostly retroactive due to stuff like the post-COIE tweaks to the dissolution of their partnership and stuff like Dixon's godawful Nightwing: Year One. Beyond that, the two could be jerks to each other but also hashed it out and made up like actual adults, like the pre-retcon (and vastly superior) story of Dick becoming Nightwing. I might actually like the larger Bat-Family more if they were built up around the pre-COIE guy instead of the douche the likes of Miller, Dixon, Rucka and Brubaker left us.

The JL is a similar issue, but none of them have permanent homes in the Bat-books.

I thought they did a great job in Batman Hush the animated movie. They showed how frightening it can be to fight Superman, he nearly killed Batman, if Clark hadn't woken up when Catwoman threw Lois off the building, Clark was just on the verge of killing Bruce. They really presented it that Bruce, even with Kryptonite was barely able to delay Superman long enough for Catwoman to get Lois.

That actually sounds a little better than the comic version, which itself isn't as bad as other examples.