Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
Quasi-Fan of: Aquaman, Midnighter, Superman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Green Arrow, Squadron Supreme, Red Hood
Other likes: Low, Hush, Arkham Asylum: ASHoSE, Watchmen, A-Force, Bombshells, Grayson, Unfollow
Team Cap (both Rogers and Danvers)
Again, rookie mistake.
He may have been presented in control but we had Barbara challenging and rebelling against it.
But I think the point is less just him accepting her and more that she forced him to do it, providing more agency on her part.You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to - either way, it's set up for him to allow it. You can say she would have done it without him being okay with it, but what it comes down to is him "allowing" it.
Well, I mean, she was technically in the same position as Robin and, depending on how you look at Robin, in-practice he's supposed to be a partner and not a subordinate/sidekick. So she wouldn't necesarilly have been a subordinate, but a partner in her own right.Which is vastly inferior to the original where she did not need him to mold or teach her. And, again, a very definitely power imbalance with her made subordinate to him. Not okay with me.
I think that's realistic for any situation where you have these pioneers who are the first to really cultivate and start a new field on their own and then new, younger, people come in and try their hand at it and try to prove themselves.Actually, I have a real issue with second-gen (not Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman who were made second gen by JSA being moved to same earth, but the actual later ones - bronze or post-COIE introductions) in the post-COIE era, especially, needing to prove their mettle or be approved or guided or molded by first-geners. It's not all of them, but I hate it. Those heroes, for the most part, got to operate on their own, with no one else's interference. To be totally independent, without needing instruction or validation from anyone else or having anyone show up to criticize them. And be awesome from the start. Too often with newer heroes, they have get validation (or worse, correction) from the older heroes to be deemed worthy or respected, and that does not work for me. Not with adults (kids are something of a different story).
It does lead to Batjerk but I usually tend to think he has good reasons for wanting to do it.Also, Batman acting like the King of Gotham who gets to forbid other heroes from working there - not okay with me. One of the reasons I mark his Batjerkness to No Man's Land at latest.
Okay, I'm just gonna ask straight up
Does DC intend for Batgirl to be subordinate to Batman? Yes or No?
...and you can write the reason below that, because Yes and No is not 10 characters lol
I say yes because, after Batgirl Year One, unless I miss anything, her next origin is New 52, which goes like this
- Barbara admires Batman and wants to be like him
- He stole a suit from a GCPD to fight an escaped criminal and Batman complimented him for it
- She made her own suit and operate independently for a year until she's drafted officially to join Batman and Robin
- A year passed, she made a mistake that's never clarified, got fired by Batman, retired and went to college
- Killing Joke happened, Batman silently regrets it
Then once New 52 started
- Barbara returned as Batgirl, fully funded by Batman
- When she thought accidentally killed her brother, she thought she doesn't deserve to wear the symbol and cut it off
- After Damian died, still in regret she asked to be made Robin since she doesn't feel she deserved to be Batgirl
She doesn't feel like an independent character until Burnside. She's fed up at Batman after Death of The Family and fed up at Gotham in general because she can't save her father who was framed, so she moved out to gather herself. She lost her Batman funded suit in a fire, so she made her own and also made crimefighting apps while continuing her study.
So independent in fact that the Burnside creators wanted to retcon The Killing Joke until Rebirth happened.
I don't know if it's already started in Batgirl Year One, but from your discussion, it sounds like they're going there, and during New 52 they're fully in.
Batfamily isn't hurting Batman, it's the writers who love cheap drama or simply incompetent are hurting him. I would even say their existence and variety are what helped Batman becoming a bigger brand.
As for Batgirl needing his permission. As long as she (and anyone else) carry his symbol and associated with him, Batman absolutely has an authority over how she operates in Gotham. That doesn't mean he has the right to ban people from his city because this is stupid.
And I just realized that I never posted any controversial opinion here despite having many and here's one of mine.
While I do believe that Damian's existence did undermine Batman's relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim, I have no problem with him loving Damian more than them. It's already great of him to take care of other people's children and give them home, but he isn't terrible nor selfish for caring more about Damian because it's natural and he has more responsibility and obligation towards him.
Last edited by Rise; 01-12-2020 at 07:06 AM.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
– Dale Carnegie
I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.
And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.
Last edited by Aahz; 01-12-2020 at 12:21 PM.
I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an asshole, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" shit could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.
I second this
Yeah, officially sanction means there's less conflict.
I think I'll hold off on officially sanctioned until at least when Batman is known as a member of the Justice League because that's when people and government will be comfortable enough to officially sanction him.
Oh, and there will still be detractors within the GCPD and government of course. The corrupt ones will continue working to overturn that sanction.
Oh, I missed reading this. Yeah, I agree it make sense for him to be deputized if he's a known member of the League. At least for show.
It should be since it's implied they're being steered by The Court, but they rarely do that except for The Court storyline... which make sense, but I kinda want there to be always a looming threat, because without that The Court only looks like quirky rich people who like to arrange overly complicated plot to either bring a Bat God to the world or recruit Dick Grayson again. They're on their third attempt right now, I believe.
People may not like to hear this but some dads do feel self-conscious if it's his biological children, and it does play into the insecurity of the adoptive children. I just wish this is the kind of family drama that DC actually tackle, instead of the power player at WB/DC deliberately prioritizing Damian in marketing because HEY HE HAS A SON NOW! DID WE MENTION HE HAS A SON?
Last edited by Restingvoice; 01-13-2020 at 04:22 AM.
I understand why a lot of fans are bothered by this, but if you take a look at the way Bruce has been written for the last few years, why would you even want Bruce to be your father?
He teaches you how to communicate through punches, beats you half to death if you cross his lines, abandons you for months and if you confront him with that fact he gives you a lame excuse that Gotham is in danger...well no shit Sherlock, that's what happens when you leave Gotham in the hands of Bane for several months. If even Deathstroke, out of all people, thinks Bruce sucks as a father, you know it's bad.
I don't know if it's controversial or not, but I think Tom King made a terrible mistake at the end of his rn by giving unlimited Superman-like powers to Gotham-Girl. She undermines the whole of Gotham if she uses them correctly, or just comes out as woefully incompetent if she doesn't. And it's really sad in both cases.