Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Rakiduam]

the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...

Why? One is supposed to be a family, the other an enterprise. One is crammed in Gotham, the other operate internationally, nevermind that Batman INC had a very specific objective.

[Caivu]

Why? One is supposed to be a family, the other an enterprise. One is crammed in Gotham, the other operate internationally, nevermind that Batman INC had a very specific objective.

They're hardly "crammed" when they'd each be responsible for patrolling, at the absolute minimum, 6 square miles (it's really more like 10 at minimum).

[Frontier]

It's been a long time since I read it - I recall her jumping off with a pretty regular rope that immediately broke. That's pretty incompetent to me - she'd have immediately been dead if not for the intervention of others. Apologies if I am misremembering. And it may not have lasted "that long" (how long?), but it was a very definite power imbalance. He had all the control, all the power.

Again, rookie mistake.

He may have been presented in control but we had Barbara challenging and rebelling against it.

You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to - either way, it's set up for him to allow it. You can say she would have done it without him being okay with it, but what it comes down to is him "allowing" it.

But I think the point is less just him accepting her and more that she forced him to do it, providing more agency on her part.

Which is vastly inferior to the original where she did not need him to mold or teach her. And, again, a very definitely power imbalance with her made subordinate to him. Not okay with me.

Well, I mean, she was technically in the same position as Robin and, depending on how you look at Robin, in-practice he's supposed to be a partner and not a subordinate/sidekick. So she wouldn't necesarilly have been a subordinate, but a partner in her own right.

Actually, I have a real issue with second-gen (not Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman who were made second gen by JSA being moved to same earth, but the actual later ones - bronze or post-COIE introductions) in the post-COIE era, especially, needing to prove their mettle or be approved or guided or molded by first-geners. It's not all of them, but I hate it. Those heroes, for the most part, got to operate on their own, with no one else's interference. To be totally independent, without needing instruction or validation from anyone else or having anyone show up to criticize them. And be awesome from the start. Too often with newer heroes, they have get validation (or worse, correction) from the older heroes to be deemed worthy or respected, and that does not work for me. Not with adults (kids are something of a different story).

I think that's realistic for any situation where you have these pioneers who are the first to really cultivate and start a new field on their own and then new, younger, people come in and try their hand at it and try to prove themselves.

Also, Batman acting like the King of Gotham who gets to forbid other heroes from working there - not okay with me. One of the reasons I mark his Batjerkness to No Man's Land at latest.

It does lead to Batjerk but I usually tend to think he has good reasons for wanting to do it.

[Restingvoice]

Okay, I'm just gonna ask straight up

Does DC intend for Batgirl to be subordinate to Batman? Yes or No?

...and you can write the reason below that, because Yes and No is not 10 characters lol

I say yes because, after Batgirl Year One, unless I miss anything, her next origin is New 52, which goes like this
- Barbara admires Batman and wants to be like him
- He stole a suit from a GCPD to fight an escaped criminal and Batman complimented him for it
- She made her own suit and operate independently for a year until she's drafted officially to join Batman and Robin
- A year passed, she made a mistake that's never clarified, got fired by Batman, retired and went to college
- Killing Joke happened, Batman silently regrets it

Then once New 52 started
- Barbara returned as Batgirl, fully funded by Batman
- When she thought accidentally killed her brother, she thought she doesn't deserve to wear the symbol and cut it off
- After Damian died, still in regret she asked to be made Robin since she doesn't feel she deserved to be Batgirl

She doesn't feel like an independent character until Burnside. She's fed up at Batman after Death of The Family and fed up at Gotham in general because she can't save her father who was framed, so she moved out to gather herself. She lost her Batman funded suit in a fire, so she made her own and also made crimefighting apps while continuing her study.

So independent in fact that the Burnside creators wanted to retcon The Killing Joke until Rebirth happened.

I don't know if it's already started in Batgirl Year One, but from your discussion, it sounds like they're going there, and during New 52 they're fully in.

[Rise]

.........

.......

Batfamily isn't hurting Batman, it's the writers who love cheap drama or simply incompetent are hurting him. I would even say their existence and variety are what helped Batman becoming a bigger brand.

As for Batgirl needing his permission. As long as she (and anyone else) carry his symbol and associated with him, Batman absolutely has an authority over how she operates in Gotham. That doesn't mean he has the right to ban people from his city because this is stupid.


And I just realized that I never posted any controversial opinion here despite having many and here's one of mine.

While I do believe that Damian's existence did undermine Batman's relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim, I have no problem with him loving Damian more than them. It's already great of him to take care of other people's children and give them home, but he isn't terrible nor selfish for caring more about Damian because it's natural and he has more responsibility and obligation towards him.

[Aahz]

Arrow kind of lost it's luster for me when they made Green Arrow and Team Arrow SCPD deputies. I get why they did it, it was kind of interesting, but it just didn't do it for me like them being mysterious, masked, vigilante's.

There are Superheroes I can buy being deputized. Superman? Sure. But not really modern Batman.

I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.

And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.

[Frontier]

I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.

And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.

The government in Gotham strikes me as the type who would be slow to officially accept something like that. Batman and the GCPD have always had an unspoken agreement that I think works better.

[jetengine]

I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an *******, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" **** could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an *******, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" **** could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.

Agreed, it should always be about standards. Being a crimefighter in Gotham ought to be dangerous and not everyone should be able to match up

[Aahz]

The government in Gotham strikes me as the type who would be slow to officially accept something like that. Batman and the GCPD have always had an unspoken agreement that I think works better.

The government of Gotham has not really been a factor for at least an decade at this point.

[Aahz]

I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an *******, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" **** could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.

The my City thing would also make more sense if he was officially sanctioned.

[Restingvoice]

I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an *******, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" **** could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.

I second this

The government in Gotham strikes me as the type who would be slow to officially accept something like that. Batman and the GCPD have always had an unspoken agreement that I think works better.

Yeah, officially sanction means there's less conflict.

I think I'll hold off on officially sanctioned until at least when Batman is known as a member of the Justice League because that's when people and government will be comfortable enough to officially sanction him.

Oh, and there will still be detractors within the GCPD and government of course. The corrupt ones will continue working to overturn that sanction.

I just don't think it makes really sense when he is around that long and is a member of the Justice League.

And honestly with in the DCU it would really make sense if there was some way for Superheros to work leagally (and there actually has to be one since many Superheros work quite openly), and it wouldn't really make sense for Batman not to use it. IIRC during Morrisons run Batman Inc. was officially working with the GCPD.

Oh, I missed reading this. Yeah, I agree it make sense for him to be deputized if he's a known member of the League. At least for show.

The government of Gotham has not really been a factor for at least a decade at this point.

It should be since it's implied they're being steered by The Court, but they rarely do that except for The Court storyline... which make sense, but I kinda want there to be always a looming threat, because without that The Court only looks like quirky rich people who like to arrange overly complicated plot to either bring a Bat God to the world or recruit Dick Grayson again. They're on their third attempt right now, I believe.

While I do believe that Damian's existence did undermine Batman's relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim, I have no problem with him loving Damian more than them. It's already great of him to take care of other people's children and give them home, but he isn't terrible nor selfish for caring more about Damian because it's natural and he has more responsibility and obligation towards him.

People may not like to hear this but some dads do feel self-conscious if it's his biological children, and it does play into the insecurity of the adoptive children. I just wish this is the kind of family drama that DC actually tackle, instead of the power player at WB/DC deliberately prioritizing Damian in marketing because HEY HE HAS A SON NOW! DID WE MENTION HE HAS A SON?

[Ansa]

I'm fine with Bruce being prickly to other heroes but not because he's just an *******, but because he has very high standards. So it's never a case of "I dont like you" its a case of "You were sloppy, in that 5.8 second period you took to showboat you could have stopped the fight earlier". Also his "My city" **** could be explained more as a kind of Rythm thing he had. He knows the ins and outs of the city (including its native non Bat heroes) and doesnt want someone new blundering about even if well meaning.

This only works if Bruce is written as a highly competent hero though. Another reason why King's run didn't work for me. That Bruce had no business telling anyone what to do.

[Ansa]

People may not like to hear this but some dads do feel self-conscious if it's his biological children, and it does play into the insecurity of the adoptive children. I just wish this is the kind of family drama that DC actually tackle, instead of the power player at WB/DC deliberately prioritizing Damian in marketing because HEY HE HAS A SON NOW! DID WE MENTION HE HAS A SON?

I understand why a lot of fans are bothered by this, but if you take a look at the way Bruce has been written for the last few years, why would you even want Bruce to be your father?
He teaches you how to communicate through punches, beats you half to death if you cross his lines, abandons you for months and if you confront him with that fact he gives you a lame excuse that Gotham is in danger...well no **** Sherlock, that's what happens when you leave Gotham in the hands of Bane for several months. If even Deathstroke, out of all people, thinks Bruce sucks as a father, you know it's bad.

[Korath]

I don't know if it's controversial or not, but I think Tom King made a terrible mistake at the end of his rn by giving unlimited Superman-like powers to Gotham-Girl. She undermines the whole of Gotham if she uses them correctly, or just comes out as woefully incompetent if she doesn't. And it's really sad in both cases.