Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[kjn]

And it snowballed from there, and we're stuck with this ******* we have now. I choose to believe the real Batman was captured and placed in suspended animation around COIE and we've been stuck with a mentally unstable clone ever since

And now the real Batman has woken up and is walking around with the Joker in a jar?

[Gotham citizen]

Obviously I agree with everything SiegePerilous02 wrote.
I can add only a thing, a consideration I made just few days ago: during Knightfall we saw Azrael become Batman, kick everybody out of the Batcave, use the batrangs like they were shuriken, became more and more reckless, violent, disrespectful toward the law and the people and in the end we saw Bruce Wayne fight Azrael because he wasn't worthy to be Batman. Then how Batman started to act after Knightfall? He kicked everybody out of the Batcave (during Murderer/Fugitive), he used the batrangs like they were shuriken, he became more and more reckless, violent, disrespectful toward the law and the people; it is like the body of Bruce Wayne is possessed by Azrael, namely by the person who was everything Batman had sweared not to be.

[Agent Z]

Bruce was acting like an unlikable jackass before Azrael came along (especially after Jason's death). The reason Az was created was so writers could have their cake and eat it too by writing a Batman was a destructive antihero without it being Wayne. Unfortunately, Azrael did what writers wouldn't let Bruce and grew out of his toxic personality traits so Bruce went back to being an intolerable *******.

[Tzigone]

Bruce was acting like an unlikable jackass before Azrael came along (especially after Jason's death). The reason Az was created was so writers could have their cake and eat it too by writing a Batman was a destructive antihero without it being Wayne. Unfortunately, Azrael did what writers wouldn't let Bruce and grew out of his toxic personality traits so Bruce went back to being an intolerable *******.

There's definitely some truth to that. Can't say about Azrael, since I've never really followed him and only saw him occasionally. But Bruce was a complete jerk to a lot of people in early post-COIE (including with the changed set up of how Dick became Nightwing and how Jason became Robin). He was better, it seemed, in the early to mid-90s (I've heard it said that some of pre-COIE Batman's personality stayed around until the mid-90s). At least he still had some good stuff in Batbooks. But by '99, he was on a downward slide again and it just got worse. Not saying there were never any good moments, but somewhere around that era (definitely by No Man's Land), he crossed the line to me and became a character that I tend to default to negative on and see more of the bad in his actions than the good in regards to his relationships with others.

[Gotham citizen]

Bruce was acting like an unlikable jackass before Azrael came along (especially after Jason's death). The reason Az was created was so writers could have their cake and eat it too by writing a Batman was a destructive antihero without it being Wayne. Unfortunately, Azrael did what writers wouldn't let Bruce and grew out of his toxic personality traits so Bruce went back to being an intolerable *******.

I think you have completely missed my point: I haven't written before Knightfall he was good, after he was bad, I have simply made a comparison between a story where Bruce Wayne (more or less) acted like the hero he was meant to be (some of his actions are questionable) and how acted after that story.
Moreover I said I agree with what SeigePerilous02 wrote:

[…]
I choose to believe the real Batman was captured and placed in suspended animation around COIE and we've been stuck with a mentally unstable clone ever since.

Which is basically in agreement with what you wrote.

[CPSparkles]

An answer like that is meaningless to me. It's like saying "good stories will sell" or "good characters will interest people" - so wide and generic that it has no value.

an example of a lesson to take from Millers DK? Ironically A batman and Robin concept that works and eliminates most of the ethical and moral questions that Robin presents.

Carrie Kelly as Robin is the Robin that feels the least exploitative.

[SiegePerilous02]

And now the real Batman has woken up and is walking around with the Joker in a jar?

That's the Snyder/Capullo Black Label book right?

Because all the power to it. I'll take what I can get at this point to get the real Bruce back.

F*** it, I was joking but I wouldn't be bothered by essentially doing a Clone Saga on Batman, but without the backtracking and have the returned Bruce be the real deal.

[kjn]

That's the Snyder/Capullo Black Label book right?

Because all the power to it. I'll take what I can get at this point to get the real Bruce back.

F*** it, I was joking but I wouldn't be bothered by essentially doing a Clone Saga on Batman, but without the backtracking and have the returned Bruce be the real deal.

Yep. Though I'm not sure it's the "real Bruce" per your definition in it. It was awesome as a Mad Max look at the DC universe, but I think the plot failed to materialise, and that exposed the holes in the worldbuilding. Imagery and mood were off the charts however, especially in the first two issues.

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
F*** it, I was joking but I wouldn't be bothered by essentially doing a Clone Saga on Batman, but without the backtracking and have the returned Bruce be the real deal.

Are you talking about Bruce in captured and put in suspended animation?
I think (almost) every understood that; like I was joking when I wrote about Bruce's body possessed by Azrael's mind.

[SiegePerilous02]

Are you talking about Bruce in captured and put in suspended animation?
I think (almost) every understood that; like I was joking when I wrote about Bruce's body possessed by Azrael's mind.

Yeah that's what I meant.
And I know fanboys would be upset that the Batman they read about or the past few decades was a clone, but it would be for the best!

[Gotham citizen]

I'm fine with that: I was an X-men reader...

[dietrich]

an example of a lesson to take from Millers DK? I

Tim Drake.

[Restingvoice]

I'm fine with that: I was an X-men reader...

Jean Grey? ^^

Tim Drake.

Elaboration?

No more Robin after Jason died until he's old age?

[Gotham citizen]

Jean Grey? ^^
[…]

Not only! They started a clone factory (synchronized with their telepath computer Cerebro), to resurrect themselves every time they die.

[Restingvoice]

Not only! They started a clone factory (synchronized with their telepath computer Cerebro), to resurrect themselves every time they die.

Oh f... that is a jumping shark moment