Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Gotham citizen]

Well... when Jason died he was buried and then he went hunting for Joker.

When Damian died.... didn't he move heaven and Hell and storm Apocalypse itself to bring him back to life?

I can see Jason fans feeling a bit miffed that Batman didn't even bother with a lazarus pit or anything for him, but face down Darkseid for his 'real' son.

The difference is that in a case the writers wanted Jason dead, in the other the writers wanted Damian alive. In my humble opinion we can't blame Bruce Wayne for what the writer decided he must did, we should blame the writers for the kind of stories they wrote and how the characters acted in those stories.

[Godlike13]

I dunno. I think it's hard to explain Jason's red hood without tying it to the batman and his microuniverse for the main DCU (elsewords and other media are their thing and can experiment and must experipment). I'm not so sold on the idea as my fellow threadmates (it's doable, but hard). And it robs him of his catharsis and denies his editorial history, all of it, which is something I don't like at all. Think about what could've happened to Dick if the Teen Titans success in the Bronze Age would have meant Dick wasn't a former Robin anymore because they wanted to put distance between both franchises. I don't think it would have been a good thing, would've rip Dick of his history and original reason d'etre.

They clearly have problems now with how to give each character their own standing without putting other in a worse place (understable). But I believe it is possible. They just need the right writers with the right ideas, actual planning and direction (that needs time and stability), and collaborative work, putting aside egos and different, conflicting sensibilities and tastes. It's a rocky road, but there is a road, I think.

I meant the perception that Jason failed, or was Bruce’s failure, or has anger issues, etc, etc. It’s to Red Hood’s benefit. Jason would be screwed if he wasn’t Robin, and Red Hood was created on the basis of Jason as a fallen Robin. There is no general appeal to just some kid from Ma Gunns school lol.

[Zaresh]

I meant the perception that Jason failed or has anger issues, etc, etc. It’s to Red Hood’s benefit.

The problem isn't what you mention. Btw, most of the batfam has as many anger issues as Jason. That's not a special trait of his that makes him "unique" or something (if it's what you meant with it). And how did he failed more than any other in the batfam? Because he died? Because he doesn't go with Bruce code to the T? Because he doesn't obey and bows to his authority without a second thought? Because he fought against them? Many, many of Batman's allies have done one or several of those points (inside the family, even) and they "didn't failed." It's because he kills? So have others too. They made mistakes, or did bad stuff, but that hasn't mean that they "failed."

See, that is actually part of the problem that makes some fans want to cut all ties with the batfranchise. That is the actual victim blaming Sergard was talking about, I think. Pointing to certain character from certain other point of view (Bruce) and say "he failed, he's bad, he's absolutely wrong". Because... because. Like when Jason's time as Robin has been rewritten to be different from how it was, of making him the villain of a story because he's convenient if you make a lot of tweaks to fit some prefabricated role that you like. Or making other characters point and acusse and attack him with weak base because cheap drama that isn't adressed afterwards and has not repercusions for said characters.

This actually annoys me, at least. I can see it being the case for a lot more people. And it sure isn't something good for the character: it's hard to enjoy when your character is being treated like that, like a punching bag or some convenient source of melodrama for the sake of other character alone. I know it by experience, not a joy.

Edit: it's even funny, because they could address some actual deeds and make actual conflicting drama. But that would open a box of worns for other characters with issues that need to be adressed and I think they don't want to. Also, it requires a lot of work, and ho, that's... work and effort. Cheap drama is always easier and faster, and easier to come with. Yeah, I'm a mad reader now. I hate cheap drama.

[Rise]

I'm curious, when did Batman or anyone else blamed Jason for his own death in recent years? The most recent example I can think of is Jason saying it's his own fault in RHATO which you guys argued with me that it's just "unreliable narrative".

[Zaresh]

I'm curious, when did Batman or anyone else blamed Jason for his own death in recent years? The most recent example I can think of is Jason saying it's his own fault in RHATO which you guys argued with me that it's just "unreliable narrative".

I didn't mean in recent years. I think the last time someone blamed Jason besides himself in the comics was Damian. But it was many years ago. I mean, as history has gone in general. They did worked that narrative up till the late 00's. And even when it's not spelled straight, it's still there in the air, that Jason deserves his treatment and fate far more than others. Lately, he's been the bad guy for the good guys "because because" in TT and Leviatan, both cases being pretty silly, because I think it was actually bad behaviour for the good guys, and meant to be read that way. But then you end with Jason being presented as a straight bad guy anyways because some people just take what's spelled in the surface in those stories and also is the idea that rolls better with what the general audience thinks something is. And that's how you end with Jason being drawn with a ton of villains and being described as one in some summaries and stuff (and that's how he is going to be remembered in some cases). I'm thinking about how he has been used outside his book in the last two, three years (ok, four, too. 2020 already, wow) and, even when it's definitely an improvement, it could be better.

Jason blaming himself about his own death makes sense for his character. Not blaming Bruce also makes sense. It's how he is, especially under Lobdell. But outside of that, eh...

[Rise]

Zaresh, no offense, but it's a bit silly to be upest over something that happened long ago and it's not happening right now. It was a different time under different writers and many of us didn't even know or care about Jason back then.

And he wasn't the "bad guy" in TT or Leviatan nor he was intended to be by the writers. He actually end up looking the better man out there while the people who blamed him end up looking bad. I personally enjoyed these appearances because it proved that Red Hood is ruthless when he needs to be and won't stand there and simply take it like what happened with Batman in issue 25 in RHATO. I also thought it was flattering that the heroes thought he was responsiblefor something as big as that and Jason was the one who made the world think he is a bad guy anyway.

I would say instead of demanding Jason to be "cut off" from Batman, demands a better writing.

[qwazer07]

His acting like an entitled brat who believes he should be Batman, but then ending up as the sidekick to Bruce's first and #1 heir who is not blood related and coming to love him as a big brother, is what gives him an awesome arc and very rewarding character dynamic with Dick. Arguably the best one Dick has with any of the other Robins.

Tim and Dick > Damian and Dick. Read more 90s and 00s comics. I recomend reading A Lonely Place of Dying. It would blow your mind and make you appreciate Tim Drake's greatness.

[Tzigone]

Tim and Dick > Damian and Dick. Read more 90s and 00s comics. I recomend reading A Lonely Place of Dying. It would blow your mind and make you appreciate Tim Drake's greatness.

I've read it. I enjoy the Tim & Dick dynamic of old (though a bit later than this). But I don't agree that Tim Drake has "greatness" any more so than plenty of other characters - I like the 90s version of the character. Loathed his early Red Robin (fell to the "make others look less competent to make Tim look good" thing that I hate with Batman). Dislike the broody supergenius best-ever-detective version (and I liked him not being Bruce's kid, too). Of course, I also think Dick's character has gone downhill in the last 20 years, too, so there's that.

And others can definitely favor the Dick/Damian dynamic over Dick/Tim - they are very different dynamics, and different characters, and it's fine for people to like different things. I just dislike people being told "read X and you'll agree with me" when sometimes I've read X, and still don't agree. Particularly, I find "A Lonely Piece of Dying" not one of my favorite bits of Tim - the entire "Batman's going violent" bit was a problem created for him to fix that didn't exist a bit earlier after Jason died. It's kinda like all the sudden Batman needs Oracle to do his tech work, when in the past he did it fine on his own - feels a bit forced. And Tim's attitude was kinda disturbing, and in the early days had some very unhealthy attitudes towards Batman (and that ties into victim-blaming Jason, too). Tim's much better later on when Dixon was writing him, IMO.

[qwazer07]

I've read it. I enjoy the Tim & Dick dynamic of old. But I don't agree that Tim Drake has "greatness" any more so than plenty of other characters - I like the 90s version of the character. Loathed his early Red Robin (fell to the "make others look less competent to make Tim look good" thing that I hate with Batman). Dislike the broody supergenius best-ever-detective version (and I liked him not being Bruce's kid, too). Of course, I also think Dick's character has gone downhill in the last 20 years, too, so there's that.

And others can definitely favor the Dick/Damian dynamic over Dick/Tim - they are very different dynamics, and different characters, and it's fine for people to like different things. I just dislike people being told "read X and you'll agree with me" when sometimes I've read X, and still don't agree.

I don't agree with what you said but you do you.

[Godlike13]

The problem isn't what you mention. Btw, most of the batfam has as many anger issues as Jason. That's not a special trait of his that makes him "unique" or something (if it's what you meant with it). And how did he failed more than any other in the batfam? Because he died? Because he doesn't go with Bruce code to the T? Because he doesn't obey and bows to his authority without a second thought? Because he fought against them? Many, many of Batman's allies have done one or several of those points (inside the family, even) and they "didn't failed." It's because he kills? So have others too. They made mistakes, or did bad stuff, but that hasn't mean that they "failed."

See, that is actually part of the problem that makes some fans want to cut all ties with the batfranchise. That is the actual victim blaming Sergard was talking about, I think. Pointing to certain character from certain other point of view (Bruce) and say "he failed, he's bad, he's absolutely wrong". Because... because. Like when Jason's time as Robin has been rewritten to be different from how it was, of making him the villain of a story because he's convenient if you make a lot of tweaks to fit some prefabricated role that you like. Or making other characters point and acusse and attack him with weak base because cheap drama that isn't adressed afterwards and has not repercusions for said characters.

This actually annoys me, at least. I can see it being the case for a lot more people. And it sure isn't something good for the character: it's hard to enjoy when your character is being treated like that, like a punching bag or some convenient source of melodrama for the sake of other character alone. I know it by experience, not a joy.

Edit: it's even funny, because they could address some actual deeds and make actual conflicting drama. But that would open a box of worns for other characters with issues that need to be adressed and I think they don't want to. Also, it requires a lot of work, and ho, that's... work and effort. Cheap drama is always easier and faster, and easier to come with. Yeah, I'm a mad reader now. I hate cheap drama.

Most of the Batfamily haven’t cut off heads and stuffed them in a bag. Jason was brought back to be bad. They might have watered him down now a days, but all the so called “victim blaming” and the negative perception over his time as Robin was spun to his benefit as Red Hood as he was originally envisioned. The idea of him as the fallen Robin is still where his general appeal lies even.

[Zaresh]

Zaresh, no offense, but it's a bit silly to be upest over something that happened long ago and it's not happening right now. It was a different time under different writers and many of us didn't even know or care about Jason back then.

It probably is a bit silly, yeah. I'm a silly person sometimes. Still, can't help it, because I read it not so long ago and it sat me wrong. Sigh, the "perks" of being a late reader.

And he wasn't the "bad guy" in TT or Leviatan nor he was intended to be by the writers. He actually end up looking the better man out there while the people who blamed him end up looking bad. I personally enjoyed these appearances because it proved that Red Hood is ruthless when he needs to be and won't stand there and simply take it like what happened with Batman in issue 25 in RHATO. I also thought it was flattering that the heroes thought he was responsiblefor something as big as that and Jason was the one who made the world think he is a bad guy anyway.

I would say instead of demanding Jason to be "cut off" from Batman, demands a better writing.

I'm aware of it. But I'm also aware of people not getting the intent behind it and believing the false narrative of him being the bad guy (edit: in those stories). And of the writers not addressing how the supposed heroes have messed up with their accusations. As I said, it's funny, because it's easy to work with what Jason actually does wrong. But it's problematic for other characters that they want to promote, like Harley Quinn or Bruce himself if you want to be thorough with the matter. For all that I don't like about King's writing, I actually liked that he used the fact that Bruce is brutal to some of his enemies to ridiculous and dangerous levels, even if in the end it didn't went somewhere, for example.

Edit: I mean, I also want better writing, but one often doesn't get what one wants. I can see why others want to sever ties.

[Zaresh]

Most of the Batfamily haven’t cut off heads and stuffed them in a bag. Jason was brought back to be bad. They might have watered him down now a days, but all the so called “victim blaming” and the negative perception over his time as Robin was spun to his benefit as Red Hood as he was originally envisioned. The idea of him as the fallen Robin is still where his general appeal lies even.

We have already had this discussion and it's clear that you only like the character as a villain and a straight bad guy, and disregard every shade in his character that contradicts that, justifying certain retcons, but not others, and not forgiving certain things for him, but not for others. It's not your fave, you don't like him for strong reasons, and it shows. I can't argue with you, it's a discussion that will go nowhere again, and I'm now not in the mood to be mad for yet another thing I can't change (not that I should, anyways. To each their own).

[Godlike13]

We have already had this discussion and it's clear that you only like the character as a villain and a straight bad guy, and disregard every shade in his character that contradicts that, justifying certain retcons, but not others, and not forgiving certain things for him, but not for others. It's not your fave, you don't like him for strong reasons, and it shows. I can't argue with you, it's a discussion that will go nowhere again, and I'm now not in the mood to be mad for yet another thing I can't change (not that I should, anyways. To each their own).

What I like is irrelevant to my point. They leaned into the negative perceptions with Red Hood. They still do. Why do you think you still see things like the “Dark” Trinity. This victim complex some Jason fans have is misguided. Those negative perceptions actually serve Red Hood.

[Zaresh]

What I like is irrelevant to my point. They leaned into the negative perceptions with Red Hood. They still do. Why do you think you still see things like the “Dark” Trinity. This victim complex some Jason fans have is misguided. Those negative perceptions actually serve Red Hood.

How it helps him? Because I think I'm not getting your point.

[SiegePerilous02]

Tim and Dick > Damian and Dick. Read more 90s and 00s comics. I recomend reading A Lonely Place of Dying. It would blow your mind and make you appreciate Tim Drake's greatness.

I've read enough 90s and 00s comics, and don't find Tim or his dynamic with Dick terribly interesting.

So for me, it's still Dick and Damian>Dick and Tim by a longshot. But I find the Dixon era in general to not be for me as far as Batman content goes.