Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Pohzee]

Jason's Talia should be... Talia! hahaha (Who thought that was a good idea?)

[AmiMizuno]

Yea Taila raped Bruce. So Dick doesn't need a Taila. However, maybe if he dates again. He could have his girlfriend be his Catwoman? Or heck maybe she can be a new supporting cast

[Jackalope89]

Yea Taila raped Bruce. So Dick doesn't need a Taila. However, maybe if he dates again. He could have his girlfriend be his Catwoman? Or heck maybe she can be a new supporting cast

Haha!

No.

[phantom1592]

I often wonder, how much Bruce and Batman are the same person? We keep hearing how Batman is the real version. However, we know that Bruce is really loving and care

I'm an absolute firm believer that Batman AND Bruce are both masks. The growly angry guy and the playboy are both fakes. Masks to get what he wants from the people they are talking to at that time. The REAL Bruce Wayne is the one raising and training the lonely orphans and having dinner with. Adam West nailed that aspect. Same with Michael Keaton. Neither millionaire airhead or dark vigilante.. but the man going over police files in front of his cave computer wearing his turtleneck and figuring out antidotes. THAT was the real person. everything else was just showmanship.

Same with Superman. The clark that people know in metropolis isn't 'real' either. He's an act. So is Superman. It's the clark who's hanging out with his parents or by himself that is the 'real' guy.

[SiegePerilous02]

Shawn Tsang was kind of a Catwoman, albeit a reformed one who would work best as a recurring ex-girlfriend.

I liked her enough to want to see her more, she doesn't even have to live in Bludhaven. She's the only good thing in it, just have her set up shop in Gotham

[sunofdarkchild]

Overall I really like Morrison's run, but I hate what he did to Talia. I think his biggest weakness as a writer is his tendency to take morally grey characters and just make them outright evil. It was worse for Talia than it was for Magneto because 1. Talia had been portrayed as an outright good guy beforehand while Magneto had reverted to villainy years before Morrison got to him, and 2. because Marvel retconned the story keep Magneto in the grey zone as soon as Morrison left while Talia being evil is the one thing DC hasn't retconned about Batman.

[Godlike13]

There was Tarantula.

[marhawkman]

I like Nightwing + Starfire.

[SiegePerilous02]

Overall I really like Morrison's run, but I hate what he did to Talia. I think his biggest weakness as a writer is his tendency to take morally grey characters and just make them outright evil. It was worse for Talia than it was for Magneto because 1. Talia had been portrayed as an outright good guy beforehand while Magneto had reverted to villainy years before Morrison got to him, and 2. because Marvel retconned the story keep Magneto in the grey zone as soon as Morrison left while Talia being evil is the one thing DC hasn't retconned about Batman.

I think it's more that he doesn't let characters off the hook and doesn't agree with going the "woobie" route for people who do terrible things. Magneto had reverted to villainy but he also was taking into account his Silver Age behavior, even Claremont's original tweaking of Magneto's character is very jarring compared to what came before and doesn't entirely mesh with it. He just had 17 years to build on it. Morrison included the fact that he was being manipulated by Sublime, so Marvel didn't have to do as over the top of a retcon as they did. With Talia, I found her more interesting than she ever was before. The only "too far" bit was her raping Bruce, but Morrison himself admitted he mis-remembered certain details so he later retconned his retcon in the New 52 and it's more ambiguous. Bruce is 100% dtf until Talia starts talking about a kid and then he goes all "omg you put something in my drink." Because Bruce is kind of a manchild. Otherwise Talia is pretty consistent with someone who was raised by Ra's al Ghul and some of her previous actions. She was already with the Secret Society before Morrison got hold of her.

He also did wrong by Jason apparently, though I don't think it's terribly inconsistent with some of Jason's more recent appearances at that time. It doesn't mesh with who he is now though. But I do appreciate the attempt to deconstruct the whole "sexy bad boy" think, with making him a redhead with a receding hairline and zits from wearing a helmet lol.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think it's more that he doesn't let characters off the hook and doesn't agree with going the "woobie" route for people who do terrible things. Magneto had reverted to villainy but he also was taking into account his Silver Age behavior, even Claremont's original tweaking of Magneto's character is very jarring compared to what came before and doesn't entirely mesh with it. He just had 17 years to build on it. Morrison included the fact that he was being manipulated by Sublime, so Marvel didn't have to do as over the top of a retcon as they did. With Talia, I found her more interesting than she ever was before. The only "too far" bit was her raping Bruce, but Morrison himself admitted he mis-remembered certain details so he later retconned his retcon in the New 52 and it's more ambiguous. Bruce is 100% dtf until Talia starts talking about a kid and then he goes all "omg you put something in my drink." Because Bruce is kind of a manchild. Otherwise Talia is pretty consistent with someone who was raised by Ra's al Ghul and some of her previous actions. She was already with the Secret Society before Morrison got hold of her.

He also did wrong by Jason apparently, though I don't think it's terribly inconsistent with some of Jason's more recent appearances at that time. It doesn't mesh with who he is now though. But I do appreciate the attempt to deconstruct the whole "sexy bad boy" think, with making him a redhead with a receding hairline and zits from wearing a helmet lol.

Yeah, they needed the over the top retcon with Magneto. Grant dumped on the character pretty hard and stripped him of any redeeming qualities and made him into a modern Silver Age villain, same as he did with Talia.

'Written like that in the Silver Age' is a poor excuse really, as story quality standards then, are not what they are now.

And hell, there's less justification to do that with Talia, as when push came to shove, she sided with Batman over her evil father. Yet he wrote her as a rapist, willing to kill her own son?

Yeah...

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, they needed the over the top retcon with Magneto. Grant dumped on the character pretty hard and stripped him of any redeeming qualities and made him into a modern Silver Age villain, same as he did with Talia.

'Written like that in the Silver Age' is a poor excuse really, as story quality standards then, are not what they are now.

And hell, there's less justification to do that with Talia, as when push came to shove, she sided with Batman over her evil father. Yet he wrote her as a rapist, willing to kill her own son?

Yeah...

No they didn't need the retcon. They could have just resurrected him and purged him of Sublime's influence. It was in the text and apparently nobody paid attention. What they did instead was needlessly convoluted and stupid. They bring characters back from the dead all the time I don't know why this was so difficult.

Morrison tends to take characters entire history into account. Whether people like it or not, Silver Age Magneto happened and he'd been sliding off and on into villainy again all throughout the 90s. The original transition to more complex Magneto with a flesh out backstory wasn't even too smooth, people just accept it because Claremont had 17 years to build on it, which was subsequently undone by other writers anyway.

Talia flip flops. She sides with Batman, then goes back to daddy. Whose goal is to wipe out most of the planet's population. Rinse, later, repeat. Rucka already drove her evil, she'd been with the Secret Society of super villains and casually manipulated a vulnerable teenage metahuman for her own ends (Black Alice, which had Black Canary vow to send her to hell for and say Batman was an idiot for falling for her act) and I believe she once even unnerved Bane by casually ordering her minions to kill themselves to lighten the load on an escape vehicle. Because their lives meant nothing to her. Morrison altered his story so that her seduction of Bruce was more ambiguous, and she wasn't thrilled with Damian's death. She put the hit out on him to force Batman to not bring him out as Robin, the kid disobeyed and she angrily killed the Heretic after.

She also straight up out maneuvered Bruce and is more interesting as a villain than her father. Dropping the "Beloved" crap was worth it, IMO.

[Zaresh]

Haha!

No.

Yeah. Let's be less Batman-ish here.

The track record about criminal females for Jason is about his mother figures, which Talia definitely is now, thank goodness.

His very short love interest record is a mixed tape of strong females with an attitude or strong females who like fun. They tend to be fiery.

I like Nightwing + Starfire.

Excellent taste .

[dietrich]

Overall I really like Morrison's run, but I hate what he did to Talia. I think his biggest weakness as a writer is his tendency to take morally grey characters and just make them outright evil. It was worse for Talia than it was for Magneto because 1. Talia had been portrayed as an outright good guy beforehand while Magneto had reverted to villainy years before Morrison got to him, and 2. because Marvel retconned the story keep Magneto in the grey zone as soon as Morrison left while Talia being evil is the one thing DC hasn't retconned about Batman.

Dc did retcon talia being evil. 3 writers attempted to but some really like her being bad.

Morrison retconned the Rape post crisis
Tomasi retconned the Rape in the new 52
Gleason took away tne evil lady who killed her son with Black pearl in RsoB giving an explanation for Batman INC

Priest and Bendis just won't let is go

[The Cool Thatguy]

No they didn't need the retcon. They could have just resurrected him and purged him of Sublime's influence. It was in the text and apparently nobody paid attention. What they did instead was needlessly convoluted and stupid. They bring characters back from the dead all the time I don't know why this was so difficult.

Morrison tends to take characters entire history into account. Whether people like it or not, Silver Age Magneto happened and he'd been sliding off and on into villainy again all throughout the 90s. The original transition to more complex Magneto with a flesh out backstory wasn't even too smooth, people just accept it because Claremont had 17 years to build on it, which was subsequently undone by other writers anyway.

Talia flip flops. She sides with Batman, then goes back to daddy. Whose goal is to wipe out most of the planet's population. Rinse, later, repeat. Rucka already drove her evil, she'd been with the Secret Society of super villains and casually manipulated a vulnerable teenage metahuman for her own ends (Black Alice, which had Black Canary vow to send her to hell for and say Batman was an idiot for falling for her act) and I believe she once even unnerved Bane by casually ordering her minions to kill themselves to lighten the load on an escape vehicle. Because their lives meant nothing to her. Morrison altered his story so that her seduction of Bruce was more ambiguous, and she wasn't thrilled with Damian's death. She put the hit out on him to force Batman to not bring him out as Robin, the kid disobeyed and she angrily killed the Heretic after.

She also straight up out maneuvered Bruce and is more interesting as a villain than her father. Dropping the "Beloved" crap was worth it, IMO.

Yes, Talia flip flops. She shifts between the man she loves, and the father who raised her.

How is making her evil not a violation of that?

Grant Morrison is like a lot of writers, who refuse to give depth to their villains. Mark Wade, Jason Aaron are others that come to mind. The villain is there to be stopped, not act as a foil.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Dc did retcon talia being evil. 3 writers attempted to but some really like her being bad.

Morrison retconned the Rape post crisis
Tomasi retconned the Rape in the new 52
Gleason took away tne evil lady who killed her son with Black pearl in RsoB giving an explanation for Batman INC

Priest and Bendis just won't let is go

Who wrote Silencer? Talia was super evil in that.