Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes, Talia flip flops. She shifts between the man she loves, and the father who raised her.

How is making her evil not a violation of that?

Grant Morrison is like a lot of writers, who refuse to give depth to their villains. Mark Wade, Jason Aaron are others that come to mind. The villain is there to be stopped, not act as a foil.

Loyalty to an evil father who indoctrinated her. If she was consistently mentally stable after being raised by someone like that, choosing between him and Batman wouldn't be that difficult. Yet here we are.
To say nothing of her own sporadic misdeeds over the years before Morrison got to her. We also have the DCAU where their twisted relationship ended up in her sacrificing herself for the creepy old man who just didn't want to die. She was painted as a character who was naturally screwed up because look at the nutcase that raised her. She wasn't lucky to have someone bail her out the way Dick did for Damian. Batman Incorporated New 52 #2 actually gives her a lot of nuance, even if the end result isn't ultimately a good/stable person. But she's a cooler villain than her father ever was, IMO.

Sometimes giving depth to villains results in their sob stories distracting from their misdeeds or giving them easy redemption that doesn't pay much care to their victims. Magneto being let off the hook way too easily for some of the crap he pulled isn't a new criticism of his character. It existed before and after Morrison wrote him. A villain being there to be stopped and standing for an evil to be vanquished isn't a bad story telling technique in itself, especially as DC and Marvel can get lazy with tugging at our heart strings and "redeeming" villains.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Loyalty to an evil father who indoctrinated her. If she was consistently mentally stable after being raised by someone like that, choosing between him and Batman wouldn't be that difficult. Yet here we are.
To say nothing of her own sporadic misdeeds over the years before Morrison got to her. We also have the DCAU where their twisted relationship ended up in her sacrificing herself for the creepy old man who just didn't want to die. She was painted as a character who was naturally screwed up because look at the nutcase that raised her. She wasn't lucky to have someone bail her out the way Dick did for Damian. Batman Incorporated New 52 #2 actually gives her a lot of nuance, even if the end result isn't ultimately a good/stable person. But she's a cooler villain than her father ever was, IMO.

Sometimes giving depth to villains results in their sob stories distracting from their misdeeds or giving them easy redemption that doesn't pay much care to their victims. Magneto being let off the hook way too easily for some of the crap he pulled isn't a new criticism of his character. It existed before and after Morrison wrote him. A villain being there to be stopped and standing for an evil to be vanquished isn't a bad story telling technique in itself, especially as DC and Marvel can get lazy with tugging at our heart strings and "redeeming" villains.

Giving a villain depth, is preferable to having them twirl their mustache.

I'm reminded of the quote that was given when Megatron joined the Lost Light as an Autobot.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer. Nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

Grant's villains are 2-D cardboard cut outs, that don't help the story at all. And that was his Talia

[Agent Z]

If you're going to make Talia such a monster, you've really got no excuse to be squeamish about Batman putting her and others like her, six feet under where she belongs.

[SiegePerilous02]

Giving a villain depth, is preferable to having them twirl their mustache.

I'm reminded of the quote that was given when Megatron joined the Lost Light as an Autobot.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer. Nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

Grant's villains are 2-D cardboard cut outs, that don't help the story at all. And that was his Talia

How much depth they really have is a matter of opinion, and YMMV on if the navel gazing is worth it.

It's weird to see people claim Talia makes more sense as an unrepentantly evil and irredeemable monster while frequently complaining about how modern Batman stories (especially ones about the Joker) are too unrelenting in their cruelty. Especially when you have stuff like her being retconned into a rapist which only happened because Morrison got things mixed up.

For that matter, if you're going to make Talia such a monster, you've really got no excuse to be squeamish about Batman putting her and others like her, six feet under where she belongs.

The rape was retconned back out in the New 52 because of catching that mistake (the drinks weren't touched). And I'm ok with the Joker being a monster because he is, it's more that he's overused and the over the top slasher aspect is boring. Talia hadn't reached that level of lazy and obnoxious yet.

Talia was killed at the end of the story, albeit by Kathy Kane. In that story at least, she got her just punishment that the Joker usually avoids. But of course she came back, and it's not like that should come as a surprise to anyone considering death is pretty much a vacation for these characters. Batman suddenly killing these villains wouldn't result in the villainous population going down, they'd just come back.

[Agent Z]

Talia hadn't reached that level of lazy and obnoxious yet.

Let's agree to disagree on that.

[The Cool Thatguy]

How much depth they really have is a matter of opinion, and YMMV on if the navel gazing is worth it..

It's worth it every damn time.

Most comic book stories are like knock knock jokes. You know the general outline, you know the pattern. Villain acts, hero gets involved, stops villain, rinse, repeat.

Giving the villain depth, allowing the writer to see the villain as a character and not just a machine, allows one to better suspend disbelief. To pretend that we don't know how the story will end and better absorb us into it. Seeing a person, instead of a 2-D drawing.

Frankly, Grant often gets so absorbed in his metaphor, call backs and obscure references, that half the time he seems to forget that he's supposed to give us a reason to care or give a damn. That's the main flaw with super evil Talia.

[phantom1592]

Loyalty to an evil father who indoctrinated her. If she was consistently mentally stable after being raised by someone like that, choosing between him and Batman wouldn't be that difficult. Yet here we are.
To say nothing of her own sporadic misdeeds over the years before Morrison got to her. We also have the DCAU where their twisted relationship ended up in her sacrificing herself for the creepy old man who just didn't want to die. She was painted as a character who was naturally screwed up because look at the nutcase that raised her. She wasn't lucky to have someone bail her out the way Dick did for Damian. Batman Incorporated New 52 #2 actually gives her a lot of nuance, even if the end result isn't ultimately a good/stable person. But she's a cooler villain than her father ever was, IMO.

Sometimes giving depth to villains results in their sob stories distracting from their misdeeds or giving them easy redemption that doesn't pay much care to their victims. Magneto being let off the hook way too easily for some of the crap he pulled isn't a new criticism of his character. It existed before and after Morrison wrote him. A villain being there to be stopped and standing for an evil to be vanquished isn't a bad story telling technique in itself, especially as DC and Marvel can get lazy with tugging at our heart strings and "redeeming" villains.

Yeah, i just can't get behind the whole 'neutral' concept. If sometimes you do good and save lives... awesome. That's good. But if the other half the time you are siding with a genocidal terrorist.... and running extreme criminal orginaztions known for assassinations.... yeah, you're pretty evil. Evil with a soft spot for the hero maybe... but she's been involved in some REALLY bad stuff and she's 'okay' with it or looks the other way out of loyalty to her dad??? Noooo that's still evil. I've never been a fan of this character. Not really a fan of the whole femme fatale trope to begin with, but at least with Catwoman they try to keep her a criminal... but not really EVIL... Steal some stuff, but not a killer...

[SiegePerilous02]

It's worth it every damn time.

Most comic book stories are like knock knock jokes. You know the general outline, you know the pattern. Villain acts, hero gets involved, stops villain, rinse, repeat.

Giving the villain depth, allowing the writer to see the villain as a character and not just a machine, allows one to better suspend disbelief. To pretend that we don't know how the story will end and better absorb us into it. Seeing a person, instead of a 2-D drawing.

Frankly, Grant often gets so absorbed in his metaphor, call backs and obscure references, that half the time he seems to forget that he's supposed to give us a reason to care or give a damn. That's the main flaw with super evil Talia.

There is difference between giving a villain depth and letting them off the hook for their crimes. A villain can be very entertaining and complex and still be a piece of crap that shouldn't have excuses made for them. Often times we have villains becoming heroes and heroes becoming villains, and heroes fighting each other non stop, rinse, repeat. That's pretty tedious and boring and played out when done wrong as well.

I don't have an issue caring about most of Morrison's stories, nor do I see a lack of depth in his Talia in her own context even ignoring other runs. Just because she's not a good person doesn't mean she isn't complex. Plus it was new and at least she picked a direction, do we really want to keep reading about her being torn between her father and Batman for the billionth time?

[The Cool Thatguy]

There is difference between giving a villain depth and letting them off the hook for their crimes. A villain can be very entertaining and complex and still be a piece of crap that shouldn't have excuses made for them. Often times we have villains becoming heroes and heroes becoming villains, and heroes fighting each other non stop, rinse, repeat. That's pretty tedious and boring and played out when done wrong as well.

I don't have an issue caring about most of Morrison's stories, nor do I see a lack of depth in his Talia in her own context even ignoring other runs. Just because she's not a good person doesn't mean she isn't complex. Plus it was new and at least she picked a direction, do we really want to keep reading about her being torn between her father and Batman for the billionth time?

I've never quite understood how "The villain is an actual person with understandable motivations" and "Letting them off the hook" are the same thing.

[SiegePerilous02]

I've never quite understood how "The villain is an actual person with understandable motivations" and "Letting them off the hook" are the same thing.

Because one typically leads to another in the hands of poor writers. it's why the trope Draco in Leather Pants is a thing.

Talia is an actual person with motivations, they just aren't pleasant ones because her upbringing was very twisted. For me, a lot of the criticisms of her lacking depth read as "I don't like her motivations and what she is doing" not that she doesn't have them. I've also seen her criticized as being a "shrieking harpy" in that run, when she never once loses her cool and does any shrieking. Like Bruce loses his cool more than she does. So do the male villains, including her father.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Because one typically leads to another in the hands of poor writers. it's why the trope Draco in Leather Pants is a thing.

Talia is an actual person with motivations, they just aren't pleasant ones because her upbringing was very twisted. For me, a lot of the criticisms of her lacking depth read as "I don't like her motivations and what she is doing" not that she doesn't have them. I've also seen her criticized as being a "shrieking harpy" in that run, when she never once loses her cool and does any shrieking. Like Bruce loses his cool more than she does. So do the male villains, including her father.

Under Grant, she's a person with cliche motivations that would fit better in the Silver Age where villains steepled their hands and cackled about their evil plans.

Frankly, any Draco is preferable to that. And given the stuff Grant teed up, 'later writers may abuse it' is a poor excuse

[SiegePerilous02]

Under Grant, she's a person with cliche motivations that would fit better in the Silver Age where villains steepled their hands and cackled about their evil plans.

Frankly, any Draco is preferable to that. And given the stuff Grant teed up, 'later writers may abuse it' is a poor excuse

"Woman struggling with loyalty between two men" isn't already a cliche? Could have fooled me.

[The Cool Thatguy]

"Woman struggling with loyalty between two men" isn't already a cliche? Could have fooled me.

Darkening her skin and making her a super evil terrorist? That's a little more than cliche, thanks.

And I don't recall dictating in what direction her depth had to go, just that she actually have some

[SiegePerilous02]

Darkening her skin and making her a super evil terrorist? That's a little more than cliche, thanks.

And I don't recall dictating in what direction her depth had to go, just that she actually have some

She's always been a terrorist. They just decided to get rid of the played out status quo for her and pick a direction.

She also has depth, people just tend to ignore it. And I think you're overselling how much depth most DC's supervillains typically have on a regular basis.

[Godlike13]

Villains are important and serve an important narrative function. It’s not always bad to be the bad guy.