Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Agent Z]

On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains.

Ras is not rooted in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible. His motives are goals are his own.

The al Ghuls have the problem of being Orientalist in a way a lot of pre-2000s Asian characters from the Big 2 are. Ra's is often coded as a terrorist if not referred to one outright in a way other Gotham villains aren't. When Talia isn't being depicted as a Dragon Lady stereotype, she's more of an "exotic lover" and is another example of DC refusing to let Asian women be positive influences in their kids' lives.

The al Ghuls can be written well but it requires examining and excising a lot of ugly and outdated tropes for them.

[Restingvoice]

But with Damians Family background it would probaly not such a good idea to play the diversity angle up to much.

And like I said it would also really be in line with how Ras and the LoA were portrait in the past, and how and where Damian was raised.

Btw. I find it wired that for some reason people seem to always forget that both Damian and Cass are actually half Caucasian, and don't really have and arabic/asian cultural background, which makes them both not exactly the best options for representation.

It's not that they forget, is that they want them to have that cultural background, because they're popular can be a more visible rep.

Although when it comes to Cass Cain I haven't really seen people asking for a cultural rep... they're already happy with her status as the most badass in the family, and I guess... their bigger problem is making DC to get Cass better treatment and more appearances.

[marhawkman]

On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains.

Ras is not rooted in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible. His motives are goals are his own.

The same sort of thing is true of Teth Adam. They're characters vaguely tied to the region, but... not really meant to represent it. That's kind of a red-herring in general. Characters in fiction for the most part should not be written to "represent" entire nations or cultures. That way leads to stupid plots and bad writing.

Here's a question most X-Men fans can't answer: what countries do the various Acolytes and MLF members come from?

The answer is really hard since... those are background details the books rarely talk about. Some of them are confusing too since you have assorted tidbits from several stories... that seemingly conflict. Like Dragoness, aka Tamara Kurtz, She looks like some version of Caucasian, her name is a combination of central European and Ashkenazi Jew names. But her backstory is her parents were exposed to the fallout of the Hiroshima bombing while her mother was pregnant with her... then she grew up in Madripoor which is a fictional nation in SE Asia. 1: this means she's in her 80s, despite looking like early 30s at oldest. 2: What is her actual cultural background?

But with Damian's Family background it would probably not such a good idea to play the diversity angle up to much.

And like I said it would also really be in line with how Ras and the LoA were portrait in the past, and how and where Damian was raised.

Btw. I find it wired that for some reason people seem to always forget that both Damian and Cass are actually half Caucasian, and don't really have and arabic/asian cultural background, which makes them both not exactly the best options for representation.

Well Damian was in part raised by his mother and has adopted some of her cultural values... which annoy Batman. Not that those are defined in the comics beyond "LoS assassin". Cassandra Cain though? yeah... she was raised by her father... badly.

[SiegePerilous02]

On the contrary, I think the Al Ghul's are a perfect example of how you can do POC villains.

Ras is not rooted in any specific Asian or Middle Eastern culture nor is he a representative of one. He is often cast as sympathetic because his ultimate goal is to save the world from us but he goes about it in the worst way possible. His motives are goals are his own.

I have to agree with what Agent Z said. Their entire organization is coded as terrorists in a way that white villains aren't (despite the Joker being as much of a terrorist). Plus Talia is either a glamorous prize/temptation for Batman or a Dragon lady. And I say that as someone who really likes Morrison's Talia because at least she's competent and not f***ing around anymore between the dick measuring context between Bruce and Ra's. But I also wouldn't lose sleep if the whole setup would be excised. Because it requires a lot of careful writing and excising of stuff, after which they might not even resemble themselves anymore anyway.

Batman is a different kind of hero. He is not an ordinary hero that saves lives. He is the kind of hero that instills fear onto criminals.

A soldier does not go to the frontline and brings his family with him.

Batman understands the pain of losing loved ones and does not want others become close to him and suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down.

This is why Batman struggles between his love life and crime fighting career. He just cant allow others to suffer from the same trauma he is suffering from.

I think the emphasis on instilling fear into people over protecting people is where a lot of Batman writing goes astray.

His main goal should be to be a protector and avenger, not to be a monster people fear (even if it is bad people). It's a secondary tool in service of the main goal.

[godisawesome]

I have to agree with what Agent Z said. Their entire organization is coded as terrorists in a way that white villains aren't (despite the Joker being as much of a terrorist). Plus Talia is either a glamorous prize/temptation for Batman or a Dragon lady. And I say that as someone who really likes Morrison's Talia because at least she's competent and not f***ing around anymore between the dick measuring context between Bruce and Ra's. But I also wouldn't lose sleep if the whole setup would be excised. Because it requires a lot of careful writing and excising of stuff, after which they might not even resemble themselves anymore anyway.



I think the emphasis on instilling fear into people over protecting people is where a lot of Batman writing goes astray.

His main goal should be to be a protector and avenger, not to be a monster people fear (even if it is bad people). It's a secondary tool in service of the main goal.

I’ve been thinking that if I were to adapt Ra’s to a new story, I would emphasize his secularism, drop a bunch of the pseudo-religious undertones (like the use of “master”, any suicidal cult elements), and try to reformat the character all around the idea of his goals and personality making his attempt to recruit Batman make some actual sense. You could honestly abuse his Lazarus Pit elements to make him be a guy whose simply lived so much longer than he should have that he has a very rationally displayed and restrained but still present “god complex” where he feels like he has the right to judge every human being and cultures worthiness to live.

Make the “Al Ghul” organization more of an international criminal fiefdom that’s committed some absurdly terrifying atrocities both for profit and to suit Ra’s own personal sense of justice... and maybe explicitly make it clear that any organization called “The Demon” isn’t backed by any organized religion and is in fact despised by them. Something like: they started as the Quarac-born Ra’s’s personal revolutionary army, grew tired of the failure of the people to maintain the peace they kept on overthrowing tyrants for, and Ra’s escalated to misanthropic and self-righteous “executioner” by detonating the nukes Cheshire used to be blamed for as “punishment” for their “inequities.”

...And maybe make Talia a fusion with Andrea Beaumont who was living with her mother instead of her father, so she fell for Bruce before she fell under her father’s influence, and than fuse Talia’s more traditional aspects with the Phantasm before going full Leviathan boss.

[Tzigone]

I think the emphasis on instilling fear into people over protecting people is where a lot of Batman writing goes astray.

I tend to agree. Of course, most heroes are feared to some degree my criminals. And I'm fine with the "cowardly, superstitious lot" where they are scared by his costumeness and takedowns. But this dark, terrifying Batman who even scares (or even intimidates) other heroes is not a good thing. Where he sacrifices his humanity/empathy/any softness at all in favor of grinding criminals into dust. I mean, yes, scaring criminals is part of his motif, but it should not be the whole of him or of what he does as Batman. Think back to that old '80s story "You Should Have Seen Him" and how we see those different facets. He saves (and shouts at) a young man attempting suicide, threatens and scares the crap out of an armed robber threatening an old woman (he vows to inflict endless pain on him without letting him die -similar to what we're used to now), and he sheds a tear over two homeless children who lost their father and takes them home and finds their aunt. It's as subtle as anvil, I'll grant you, but it's very good at showing the different ways Batman acts with different people. He does save lives, protect people, help people. It's just as much as what he does as instilling fear in criminals. I hate that that's so often not focused on, or even lost. That being that scary BatDemon is as an act of theater as Brucie (not a fan of Brucie, either, as I liked a Bruce with a life and normal friends, etc.).

[godisawesome]

I tend to agree. Of course, most heroes are feared to some degree my criminals. And I'm fine with the "cowardly, superstitious lot" where they are scared by his costumeness and takedowns. But this dark, terrifying Batman who even scares (or even intimidates) other heroes is not a good thing. Where he sacrifices his humanity/empathy/any softness at all in favor of grinding criminals into dust. I mean, yes, scaring criminals is part of his motif, but it should not be the whole of him or of what he does as Batman. Think back to that old '80s story "You Should Have Seen Him" and how we see those different facets. He saves (and shouts at) a young man attempting suicide, threatens and scares the crap out of an armed robber threatening an old woman (he vows to inflict endless pain on him without letting him die -similar to what we're used to now), and he sheds a tear over two homeless children who lost their father and takes them home and finds their aunt. It's as subtle as anvil, I'll grant you, but it's very good at showing the different ways Batman acts with different people. He does save lives, protect people, help people. It's just as much as what he does as instilling fear in criminals. I hate that that's so often not focused on, or even lost. That being that scary BatDemon is as an act of theater as Brucie (not a fan of Brucie, either, as I liked a Bruce with a life and normal friends, etc.).

I’d love it if they modified the “Bat-signal” from an illogical holdover that not even the BTAS show used a lot, and made it more of a “summon Batman ritual” that regular citizens, criminals, and others have used for different reasons. So it wouldn’t explicitly be a sign of hope, but almost like an invocation that even children know could help them out of a jam, or that a repentant criminal might use if his boss has gone too far... and that malevolent forces still regard it as an “evil sign”.

[prepmaster]

The point of his crusade against crime is because he doesnt want others to suffer like him. When you write Batman as a married man and still commits himself to crime fighting, it would not make sense for the character. He is someone who suffers from the trauma of losing his loved ones and yet he would risk leting his love suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down in fighting crime? He would be really conflicted. Other heroes can have their love life but Batman is not someone who can allow others to suffer like him.

[Tzigone]

I’d love it if they modified the “Bat-signal” from an illogical holdover that not even the BTAS show used a lot, and made it more of a “summon Batman ritual” that regular citizens, criminals, and others have used for different reasons. So it wouldn’t explicitly be a sign of hope, but almost like an invocation that even children know could help them out of a jam, or that a repentant criminal might use if his boss has gone too far... and that malevolent forces still regard it as an “evil sign”.

I can't get past the idea that it would be used constantly, to the point that never be any time it wasn't being used.

Really, also, I'm less than keen on hero symbols broadly being really meaningful symbols to the wider community. It's just got a bit too much potential for worship/deification of heroes/symbols. I'm not a fan of Space-Jesus Superman, already, and this, while not as extreme, just isn't my thing.

When you write Batman as a married man and still commits himself to crime fighting, it would not make sense for the character. He is someone who suffers from the trauma of losing his loved ones and yet he would risk leting his love suffer from the same pain of seeing him go down in fighting crime?

Yeah, he'd never risk someone he loved losing him to death because he was fighting crime...that's why he's risked leaving more than one child parentless by fighting crime and being a parent at the time same time. I mean, come on, he's risked leaving behind a grieving loved one ever since he took in Dick Grayson and became a parent to him. The vast majority of his history, that's been a possibility.

[prepmaster]

Yeah, he'd never risk someone he loved losing him to death because he was fighting crime...that's why he's risked leaving more than one child parentless by fighting crime and being a parent at the time same time.

He took in orphans who already lost parents. Batman saw that they were suffering like him so he took them in.

[Tzigone]

He took in orphans who already lost parents. Batman saw that they were suffering like him so he took them in.

Yes. And he risked them suffering even more by losing another parent. Yet somehow it's out of the question for him to marry a (far less vulnerable) grown woman who makes an informed choice that the good is worth risking that sort of loss? Can't agree with that.

[prepmaster]

Yes. And he risked them suffering even more by losing another parent. Yet somehow it's out of the question for him to marry a (far less vulnerable) grown woman who makes an informed choice that the good is worth risking that sort of loss? Can't agree with that.

The Robin aspect is one of the unrealistic aspect of Batman since no one in real life would allow a child to fight crime.

Even when he took in Robins, Batman was still devoted to crime fighting more than taking care of them. Alfred was the one who does the hard work.

Marrying someone and starting a family life of your own is different.

Would Batman want a child that he truly raises up to see him die fighting in a crime alley?

[Tzigone]

Even when he took in Robins, Batman was still devoted to crime fighting more than taking care of them. Alfred was the one who does the hard work.

Alfred wasn't there when he took in Dick. That's a retcon/reboot thing. And even when Alfred was there, the kids still regarded Bruce as their father, and would have borne the emotional loss/grief of him being killed.

[prepmaster]

And even when Alfred was there, the kids still regarded Bruce as their father, and would have borne the emotional loss/grief of him being killed.

The Robins were written to be mature enough to do crime fighting on their own so they were not that different from mature adults. They were children but with adult minds. When they became Robin, they were not like his small sons that need to be taken care of.

If they had been written as small sons that need to be taken care of, Bruce would not have devoted to crime fighting.

Past comics are less grounded than modern day ones.

Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. They didnt think much about what Bruce would do as a character, just want Batman to have a young sidekick.

[Godlike13]

Bruce took in 1 orphan who lost his parents. And crime fighting is how he took care of them. They were incorporated into his life.