Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Agent Z]

Hmm.
I'd say all Batman-related characters share a huge amount of similar themes.

Well that's probably why you won't see a whole lot of em in the films if some here are to b e believed.

[Frontier]

Well that's probably why you won't see a whole lot of em in the films if some here are to b e believed.

Well, I think it's more to do with that you can only fit so many characters into something and that, like it or not, the "originals" have a better chance of making it in then their successors do by virtue of iconography.

But I don't think that should be used as a slight against any character, personally. I also don't have any dog in the "who's the best Batgirl" or "who's the best Robin" debate and on the topic of whether those characters need to exist because I like and enjoy them all.

How do you think I feel about Kingdom Come, What's So Funny and Under The Red Hood

Fair enough, although I think the issues with those stories can be subjective depending on your opinion/stance on the characters involved.

I don't think their actions were as OOC as saying "vaccinations are wrong" would be.

[bat_girl_cc]

Cass and Damian are different in alot of ways...
1) For instances, a movie with Cass would always be much more action packed and darker than a Damian movie...i mean, Cass was mostly raised in isolation so that she wouldn't comunicate with others, and as a little child Cass used to be shot all over her body by her own father, who also had her facing some of the most dangerous fighters in the world, and basically led her to take a human life...even in the rebirth continuity Cass was forced to watch her father literally killing and slicing people in front of her, a movie with her would IMO be much more violent than a movie with Damian.
2) Also, Bruce-Cass relationship is different from Bruce-Damian, with Damian being his biological son, Bruce is almost "forced" (story-wise) to care for him...with Cass, it was different, Bruce cared for her for who she was, and also because they had alot in common with each other, this was explored in the pre-flashpoint continuity.
3) Cass was meant to become Ra's all ghul perfect Body-Guard, as in their most deadly assassin/fighter...while Damian was meant to become their Leader, as in "the one in charge" (different things).

[bat_girl_cc]

You never know Steph was in YJ2. DC could use these shows to feature / introduce non A list heroes to the GA. I mean it doesn't have to be a big role just cameo's or tiny background roles just to get them in public consciousness. those mini DC shorts should feature these characters who so far are only known to comic readers. That would be a good way to get them off the ground introduced then take from there.

I don't think that you get what i'm saying...they won't appear, because DC won't let them appear, because they don't want them to appear, because they don't like them.

[Carabas]

3) Cass was meant to become Ra's all ghul perfect Body-Guard, as in their most deadly assassin/fighter...while Damian was meant to become their Leader, as in "the one in charge" (different things).

Strictly speaking, Damian was intended to be nothing more than a replacement body for Ra's to inhabit, if we're going by all the retcons.

[darkseidpwns]

Yeah that's a load right there. A character's position as the protagonist is not an automatic defense for them. That's Twilight style of crappy writing. Or are you telling me if some writer wrote a Batman or Superman story decrying vaccination and used a cartoonish straw man to represent their opposition you'd just accept it?

Nope. Cass only spoke with extreme difficulty with people she was comfortable with as seen in the ellipses in her speech. What the books didn't do was present her as stupid or slow thinking because of her disability. Her taking orders does not negate that.

Load of what? it's a Batman story, it exists to serve Batman's narrative. The writer is not obligated to serve your personal political beliefs and WOW nice strawman there, I love how we're comparing murderers to vaccination, next you'll be comparing rapists to abortion. If you want a story about a killer being glorified then go read Deathstroke or Punisher, different flavors exist for different people. A Batman story will never result in Batman killing or Batman hugging it out with a killer vigilante. I dont support Batman's code either on a personal level but I dont project my own politics and morality on to him nor do I want writers to do that, I have my substitutes for that. You're way too obsessed with Batman's no kill code, why do you even read stories with Batman? just read Punisher and be done with it.

Means nothing, it's not a disability if it doesn't matter.

[bat_girl_cc]

I believe what she means is that since Damian and Cass share similar themes a Cass movie would be considered a rehash of Damian. Especially now that Damian had gotten some out old comic exposure in the animated movies.

In a way, yes, and that could be a reason for them not trying it...but lets separate things, as i've already said, a movie with Cass would always be different from a movie with Damian, and if DC was invested in doing it, it would always be worth it, but they won't, not with the current board of directors they won't.
No matter how many similarites Cass and Damian shared (and it aren't that many, when you think about it = connections to the league of assassins, so does jason todd, and trained since childhood to be assassins, but so have been other characters in Marvel as well, besides Cass > Damian, in what she had to endure, in skills, etc, just much more badass) they wouldn't do a movie with Cass on it, and Cass sharing some similarites with Damian is the least of their reasons.

[SiegePerilous02]

How do you think I feel about Kingdom Come, What's So Funny and Under The Red Hood

Weren't the antagonists of What's So Funny based upon characters from works by Warren Ellis and the like, created to deconstruct the superhero genre? What's wrong with the superhero genre throwing shade right back at it? If those works use strawman arguments to point out the flaws in superhero fiction, why couldn't Joe Kelly do the same in reverse? I'm sure Ellis and Millar didn't care, The Authority is a strong enough work that it can handle being poked.

[bat_girl_cc]

Strictly speaking, Damian was intended to be nothing more than a replacement body for Ra's to inhabit, if we're going by all the retcons.

Yeah, but that on itself could be used as a possible plot for a story, imagine, Ra's disapears, gets abducted, or something...and Damian is declared the new leader of the league of assassins, Damian is threatned that the League would kill Batman, Alfred, and the others, if he didn't step up as the leader of he League, so he agrees while inteending to double-cross them from the start...the enemies of the League learn that the League has a new leader, and attack thinking that they are weaker now without Ra's...enter Cass, saving Damian, who then learns about the child-prodigy...Batman, Nightwing, Bawing and Batwoman then, also join the fight to take down the enemy...There! i just gave you a possible plot, for a new film

[Agent Z]

Load of what? it's a Batman story, it exists to serve Batman's narrative. The writer is not obligated to serve your personal political beliefs and WOW nice strawman there, I love how we're comparing murderers to vaccination, next you'll be comparing rapists to abortion. If you want a story about a killer being glorified then go read Deathstroke or Punisher, different flavors exist for different people. A Batman story will never result in Batman killing or Batman hugging it out with a killer vigilante. I dont support Batman's code either on a personal level but I dont project my own politics and morality on to him nor do I want writers to do that, I have my substitutes for that. You're way too obsessed with Batman's no kill code, why do you even read stories with Batman? just read Punisher and be done with it.

Means nothing, it's not a disability if it doesn't matter.

Yeah a Batman story won't end with him killing. Except when he does. Also, you do know his two most well known love interest are killers right? And that one of his sidekicks is one too?

I get my share of bloodletting from other stories. What I have issue with is the book trying to wring cheap drama out of its franchise restrictions. I have an issue with stories that try to do The Killing Jone all the while missing the point of that story and why Alan Moore wanted it out of continuity. If the writers don't have the balms to kill Joker off them stop writing stories where Bruce is shown as an impotent, ineffectual martyr for clinging to a self-defeating rule. In short, I dislike that the writers portray the heroes as if they were in the Silver Age while using modern age writing for the villains.

I don't even know what to say to this. It's like I'm speaking to a brick wall. I'm done here.

[Agent Z]

Weren't the antagonists of What's So Funny based upon characters from works by Warren Ellis and the like, created to deconstruct the superhero genre? What's wrong with the superhero genre throwing shade right back at it? If those works use strawman arguments to point out the flaws in superhero fiction, why couldn't Joe Kelly do the same in reverse? I'm sure Ellis and Millar didn't care, The Authority is a strong enough work that it can handle being poked.

I could say the same about Superman.

[SiegePerilous02]

I could say the same about Superman.

Ok so...what's the issue here? It's ok for the Authority to make strawman arguments against the superhero genre, but not ok for Superman to do the same? And of course, YMMV on whether either stance is a strawman. I don't think "it's wrong to murder people" is all that arrogant of a stance, especially since the Elite weren't eager to get what they'd been dishing out.

[Agent Z]

Ok so...what's the issue here? It's ok for the Authority to make strawman arguments against the superhero genre, but not ok for Superman to do the same? And of course, YMMV on whether either stance is a strawman. I don't think "it's wrong to murder people" is all that arrogant of a stance, especially since the Elite weren't eager to get what they'd been dishing out.

As someone who isn't much of a fan of the Authority, I can't help but see some of the arguments against the superhero genre as being rather on point, if not presented in a somewhat crass manner. Meanwhile,What's So Funny is one of many stories shilling the hero by presenting in-universe critics as unsympathetic straw men. All while tackling an issue that ongoing comic superhero continuities heave neither the will nor intelligence to address.

[Carabas]

Weren't the antagonists of What's So Funny based upon characters from works by Warren Ellis and the like, created to deconstruct the superhero genre?

Not really. They were very badly based on characters from works by Warren Ellis that Joe Kelly didn't like, and told proper superhero stories about real, honest to god superheroes. Who killed people, but that comes with the Wildstorm teritory.

"What's So Funny" didn't poke The Authority, it poked Joe Kelly's reading comprehension. His Elite acted like (very minor) Authority villains.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Yes, she's appeared in more media forms, but that's a fickle thing. Ask Wally West and John Stewart about that

Wally West has more media appearances than Barry Allen? Wally was in JLU but he was mainly the comic relief and his real name barely mentioned. Barry was the star of the main Flash TV show in the early 90s, the current show and now the movies. Even when they brought Barry back their media appearances were pretty even.

On Cass Cain, I like the appearances I've read of her but prefer Steph. Much better than Babsgirl though.