Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[John Venus]

Not sure if choosing the one Bat-family member who was a professional athlete (tennis) as trans rep, would be a good idea.

There would be backlash regardless. Not sure what you mean about the tennis things. Is it about the discourse around whether trans athlete should be able to compete in the Olympic or not?

[MajorHoy]

There would be backlash regardless. Not sure what you mean about the tennis things. Is it about the discourse around whether trans athlete should be able to compete in the Olympic or not?

I was thinking Will Evans might be referring to things like Renée Richards (anybody else remember her?) and famous lesbian tennis players like Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova, but I don't know for sure.

[Will Evans]

I was thinking Will Evans might be referring to things like Renée Richards (anybody else remember her?) and famous lesbian tennis players like Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova, but I don't know for sure.

Yeah, Renee Richards was who I was thinking of.

[TheRay]

Batman is always portrayed as such a loner, but he has way more sidekicks and groups than almost anybody else.
What makes him a "loner" again?

[RobinGA]

He's really not a loner.
But that is part of his rep, his mythology.
People have at various times built him up as the brooding
Dark Knight.
Bruce really does like having people around him.
That is my take at least.

[TheRay]

He pushes people away, sure, but that doesn't last very long.

[Aahz]

if Duke Thomas isn't portrayed as top 5 combatants in the Batfamily within the next 5 years, given his skillset, DC is aggressively mismanaging the character.

The way they handle him now I'm kind of skeptical if he is even around much 5 years from now.

To me the only two Batfamily characters where they should really for "top combatant" as primary "qualification" are Cass and Jason.

With Cass it is anywhere her thing.

And with Jason he had all that crazy training when became Red Hood (including the All Caste), was (apart from maybe Damian) the most aggressive Robin and the one who enjoyed fighting the most and is just simply physically the biggest of the Robins.

[MajorHoy]

The way they handle him now I'm kind of skeptical if he is even around much 5 years from now.

To me the only two Batfamily characters where they should really for "top combatant" as primary "qualification" are Cass and Jason.

With Cass it is anywhere her thing.

And with Jason he had all that crazy training when became Red Hood (including the All Caste), was (apart from maybe Damian) the most aggressive Robin and the one who enjoyed fighting the most and is just simply physically the biggest of the Robins.

Jason may be aggressive, but how is he on the defensive end? How good is he at finding a way to win without inflicting harm?

[godisawesome]

Jason may be aggressive, but how is he on the defensive end? How good is he at finding a way to win without inflicting harm?

I know Pre-New 52, the handful of times that different creators put him up against other Batfamily members, he was shown as being an offensive powerhouse… but very susceptible to counterattacks. I don’t think it was a coordinated effort at all, and it definitely played into the character favoritism of the stories he was in; Fabian Nicieza, for instance, had Tim get some vengeance for his earlier one-sided beat down in Teen Titans with a more strategic attack that Jason had to spray bullets randomly to defeat, while Tony Daniel had Tim manage a brief offensive flurry with a crowbar that genuinely battered Jason, before having Nightwing time a kick to take him down.

But I’ pd argue that the actual argument should not be “how good of a fighter are they?” For the family, but more “What’s their combat strategy?”, with an implication that *all* members have the capacity to be more dangerous than the others in their preferred manner of attack. Really, only Cassandra should be the straight up martial artist that attracts Shiva’s attention as a “challenge”, with the implication being the others are more well-rounded but less esoterically focused.

I mean, while I don't like Lobdell’s storytelling and think his series are ultimately more of a hindrance to the character, I kind of like the idea of Jason have a more eclectic and weird, high-offense combat strategy that utilizes weapons both mundane and magical, as Lobdell portrayed him. Dick feels like he should be the master of maneuver and getting the quickest read on his opponents, letting his opponents beat themselves if he can. Tim is the “ace in the hole” planner, capable of highly effective game plans that *can* win a fight before it begins, but doesn’t react well to (rare) unexpected variables. Steph should be an ambush fighter using confusing gadgets, as should Damian, with the difference being that she falls back if caught while he dives forward.

Etc.

Really, I feel that most of the family shouldn’t be in the “best martial artists” debate, not because they might not have the skills for it or anything, but more because Bruce doesn’t give a damn about it, and those who are in that competition know the Bats. Always. Cheat. Even Cass, just not as much.

[Restingvoice]

I mean, while I don't like Lobdell’s storytelling and think his series are ultimately more of a hindrance to the character, I kind of like the idea of Jason have a more eclectic and weird, high-offense combat strategy that utilizes weapons both mundane and magical, as Lobdell portrayed him.

Dick feels like he should be the master of maneuver and getting the quickest read on his opponents, letting his opponents beat themselves if he can.

Tim is the “ace in the hole” planner, capable of highly effective game plans that *can* win a fight before it begins, but doesn’t react well to (rare) unexpected variables.

Steph should be an ambush fighter using confusing gadgets, as should Damian, with the difference being that she falls back if caught while he dives forward.

Etc.

I like to add that Dick, with some writers the past few years establishing him as a jump without a net kinda guy, has made him very adaptable and can change his fighting style depending on the enemy, use the environment, and if get mobbed, use the enemy's weapon against the other. That would go under the master of maneuver thing.

[Aahz]

Jason may be aggressive, but how is he on the defensive end? How good is he at finding a way to win without inflicting harm?

I don't think that he is worse than the rest of the Batfamily, but he usually just doesn't avoid inflicting harm. He got the same training from Bruce Dick and Tim got, and than on top all the training Talia organized for him and the All Caste Training (and I guess at least their training also included some less violent techniques).

And if you go by pre Flash Point (= Winnik) he is also pretty good with prepping and strategy.


I also did really wanted to get into the discussion of who is how good at martial arts. Main point for me is that most Batfamily members have kind thing they excel at.

Dick is the leader/acrobat, Tim is the smart guy .... and Jason feels just like the most straight up fighter to me among the Robins (similar but not the same extreme degree as Cass among the Batgirls).

[lemonpeace]

The way they handle him now I'm kind of skeptical if he is even around much 5 years from now.

I've been hearing this quite literally every year since I started reading Duke in 2015/2016ish. it's like when every year someone goes "DC's closing down forever this year", as far as I'm concerned the claim is just weird wishful thinking. *shrugs* "iunno if [x thing] is gonna be here in [insert arbitrarily timeframe]" doomsaying is just so common on these kinda forums that i couldn't possibly care until it actually happens.

also, that's cool that you think Jason and Cass are the only top combatants candidates, but all experience being equal, Duke's skillset still takes their lunch money. other than the excuse of "oh he's inexperienced" there is no logical reason that the guy who's trained with 3 of the Batfams best fighters (Batman, Cassandra Cain, Red Hood, 4 if you wanna count Dick during We are Robin), was trained and mentored by Black Lightning, Lady Shiva (Shiva was more of a mentor), and Katana and has an assortment of superpowers, one of which being the ability to see (not predict) your next move and another being a healing factor. I said top 5 to be generous, he should be arguably top 2 or 3; rivaling or only second to characters like Clayface, Armored bats (like Azrael and Batwing), or highest tier fighters like Dick or Cassandra in terms of combat capability in the Batfamily.

[Godlike13]

I've been hearing this quite literally every year since I started reading Duke in 2015/2016ish. it's like when every year someone goes "DC's closing down forever this year", as far as I'm concerned the claim is just weird wishful thinking. *shrugs* "iunno if [x thing] is gonna be here in [insert arbitrarily timeframe]" doomsaying is just so common on these kinda forums that i couldn't possibly care until it actually happens.

And every year it becomes closer and closer to becoming true. Duke is barely around now as it is. That isn't a personal offense against Duke, its just a reasonable observation.

[lemonpeace]

And every year it becomes closer and closer to becoming true. Duke is barely around now as it is. That isn't a personal offense against Duke, its just a reasonable observation.

first, let me get out the way that DC still could do better by Duke. having said that, dude started the year coming off a year+ of consistent page time in Outsiders then had appearances in Death Metal, Death Metal - Robin King, Future State, and a Tales from the Dark Multiverse story. then he had a one-shot, he's made his first out of comics cameo, and he's having a starring role in the Fear State: Outsiders story in Urban Legends where he's on the cover of the book. so it's weird to say he's "barely around" when not only has he been consistently around but he just came off of like 4 stories where he's the focal point within less than a year; his one-shot was literally last month. considering where he started, when people started saying this, compared to now, is it a really reasonable observation? no, it's weird defeatist wishful thinking that is common not just with Duke but most things that are new that have been introduced in the last decade or so. people can't even fathom the fact that we're still on the post-Flashpoint world lol like c'mon. y'all chattin. like I said, until it happens I couldn't possibly care.

[Godlike13]

Almost everybody had appearances in the big DC universe event that was Death Metal. Lead by his creator. His publication has taken a nose dive this year. Where before he was mini material, its now one shots and stories in anthology books. He’s now on pace for pockets of small stories or appearances every 6 months or so. This isn’t “weird defeatist wishful thinking” this is a time proven system with new characters. They push them early, then if they don’t see the results there comes a point where they taper off and move on. Which is very obviously happening with Duke. As we see his publication clearly lessening. Best hope for Duke is that other media picks him up, incentivizing them to cycle back. Because right now Duke seems like a character that can look forward to scraps or resident team appearances. A far cry from the next spin-off property they were hoping for. He’s not proving nay sayers wrong with what DC is doing with him.