Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Restingvoice]

Yeah but they have their own book

[dietrich]

I don't think that he is worse than the rest of the Batfamily, but he usually just doesn't avoid inflicting harm. He got the same training from Bruce Dick and Tim got, and than on top all the training Talia organized for him and the All Caste Training (and I guess at least their training also included some less violent techniques).

And if you go by pre Flash Point (= Winnik) he is also pretty good with prepping and strategy.


I also did really wanted to get into the discussion of who is how good at martial arts. Main point for me is that most Batfamily members have kind thing they excel at.

Dick is the leader/acrobat, Tim is the smart guy .... and Jason feels just like the most straight up fighter to me among the Robins (similar but not the same extreme degree as Cass among the Batgirls).

I don't understand why some have to classify the Robins as one single ability or trait.
It not only ignores a **** ton of other capabilities. It's not accurate.

Speciality?

Theres no Canon evidence showing that Tim is smarter than Dick.
There's nothing that shows that Jason is a better fighter than Dick or Damian.

Dick is more than Acrobat/leader.
Tim isn't as smart or tech savy as Damian.
Jason might be bigger and aggressive but he isn't as cunning as Tim or Damian so those two can take him regardless of how big he is.

Aggression doesn't give you an advantage in combat. It's actually a disadvantage.

Jason does have other training and skills aside from batman however how long were these training and how long was he alive and receiving bat training?

how long has he spent on the field and sparring?

These make a huge difference. All the Robins have been trained by Batman but Dick has been doing the Bat training and on field training since age 8. So while yeah they were all trained by Batman NONE of the others are anywhere near Dick because he's logged more hours.

Tim's 3 years of Batman training would not result in the proficiency as Dick's 20+ years.

So there tiers of batman training.

Technically Dick and tim both have batman training only Tim's still in beginners tier while Dick is a Master.

If that makes sense. English isn't my 1st language.

Anyway my point is that using bat/LOA training as evidence in 'best fighter' debates should factor in duration of said training.

Jason didn't get the same training as Dick and Tim. None of the robins got the the same batman training.

I'm not a fan of Robins having one skill they are best at. That's just lazy and often disproven but Robin fans seem to enjoy 'Best at' debating

[Lal]

I don't understand why some have to classify the Robins as one single ability or trait.
It not only ignores a **** ton of other capabilities. It's not accurate.


Tim's 3 years of Batman training would not result in the proficiency as Dick's 20+ years.

So there tiers of batman training.

Technically Dick and tim both have batman training only Tim's still in beginners tier while Dick is a Master.

Agreed. Dick has 20 years of crime-fighting experience, as well as teaming up with almost everyone and leading almost any DC team. He's by far the most experienced one.

BTW, Nightwing's sister could probably count now as part of the Wing family. It seems very likely we'll see more of her in Taylor's run.
I'm not a fan of the long-lost sister shtick, but at the same time halfway happy they are siblings if she indeed stays long-term. At least this way nobody will ship them.

[Marik Swift]

I don't understand why some have to classify the Robins as one single ability or trait.
It not only ignores a **** ton of other capabilities. It's not accurate.

Speciality?

Theres no Canon evidence showing that Tim is smarter than Dick.
There's nothing that shows that Jason is a better fighter than Dick or Damian.

Dick is more than Acrobat/leader.
Tim isn't as smart or tech savy as Damian.
Jason might be bigger and aggressive but he isn't as cunning as Tim or Damian so those two can take him regardless of how big he is.

Aggression doesn't give you an advantage in combat. It's actually a disadvantage.

Jason does have other training and skills aside from batman however how long were these training and how long was he alive and receiving bat training?

how long has he spent on the field and sparring?

These make a huge difference. All the Robins have been trained by Batman but Dick has been doing the Bat training and on field training since age 8. So while yeah they were all trained by Batman NONE of the others are anywhere near Dick because he's logged more hours.

Tim's 3 years of Batman training would not result in the proficiency as Dick's 20+ years.

So there tiers of batman training.

Technically Dick and tim both have batman training only Tim's still in beginners tier while Dick is a Master.

If that makes sense. English isn't my 1st language.

Anyway my point is that using bat/LOA training as evidence in 'best fighter' debates should factor in duration of said training.

Jason didn't get the same training as Dick and Tim. None of the robins got the the same batman training.

I'm not a fan of Robins having one skill they are best at. That's just lazy and often disproven but Robin fans seem to enjoy 'Best at' debating

That's not fan preference though, just a matter of reality

People excel at different things.

[Zaresh]

Well if that's the case I'm adding Cass to the sixth since she's supposed to be adopted before the Reboot happened.

Otherwise, it goes like this.

The Fox Fam
- Jace
- Luke
- Tiffany

The Babs Fam (The Birds)
- Babs
- Cass
- Steph
- Helena
- Harper

The Hood Fam
- Jason
- Scarlet
- Clownhunter

The Kane Fam
- Kate
- Bette

The Bat Fam
- Bruce
- Tim
- Damian
- Duke

The Wing Fam
- Nightwing
- Defacer
- The Run-Offs

The Sirens
- Harley
- Ivy
- Bella

The Cat Fam
- Selina
- Holly
- Kitrina

The Outsiders
- Black Lightning
- Katana
- Ghost-Maker
- Azrael

Jason hasn't shared a scene with Scarlet since pre-FP. I doubt she's even canon now. Clownhunter hasn't shared more than two panels with Jason in hall his story. Heck, Duke has shared more time with Jason than him, and he's Bruce's fam.

Jason has a cast of characters, but those aren't his, that's for sure. The all caste, for example. Essence, too. Numbers, or the girl from the last two issues of RHATO that I can't remember her name, the kids from the XMen-like academy, the woman from that mercenary agency in RH/A, Tyler from Urban Legends, Willis Todd, Ma Gunn and her grandaughter Faye, Isabel... Lobdell gave him a ton of support cast, but not only him. Williamson and Rosenberg are probably going to give him a few in the end, too, like the Arkhan Knight.

And Tim too, has his large list of original support regulars. And Dick. And Kate has Rene and her actual family.

[SiegePerilous02]

Dukes main problem is that he was added to the Bat family when it was already severely overcrowded with characters struggling for page space and redundancies among them. Now I that his creator is gone, his best hope may be Jean Paul status, brought out from time to time but otherwise treated as a footnote.

[SpiderTBliss]

Batman and Harley should get together.

[Robanker]

Dukes main problem is that he was added to the Bat family when it was already severely overcrowded with characters struggling for page space and redundancies among them. Now I that his creator is gone, his best hope may be Jean Paul status, brought out from time to time but otherwise treated as a footnote.

The thing is, Azrael's got the flaming sword visual which keeps him alive. Both iterations of Azrael wisely kept that. I don't know that Duke even has that going for him.

first, let me get out the way that DC still could do better by Duke. having said that, dude started the year coming off a year+ of consistent page time in Outsiders then had appearances in Death Metal, Death Metal - Robin King, Future State, and a Tales from the Dark Multiverse story. then he had a one-shot, he's made his first out of comics cameo, and he's having a starring role in the Fear State: Outsiders story in Urban Legends where he's on the cover of the book. so it's weird to say he's "barely around" when not only has he been consistently around but he just came off of like 4 stories where he's the focal point within less than a year; his one-shot was literally last month. considering where he started, when people started saying this, compared to now, is it a really reasonable observation? no, it's weird defeatist wishful thinking that is common not just with Duke but most things that are new that have been introduced in the last decade or so. people can't even fathom the fact that we're still on the post-Flashpoint world lol like c'mon. y'all chattin. like I said, until it happens I couldn't possibly care.

At least on my part, it's more a trend with new characters that I've noticed having been a reader of over two decades. Typically, a new supporting cast/love interest/new sidekick or hero is introduced and gets use, but once their creator leaves the book or relevance, the character shifts to the background, is killed or revealed to be evil. The best examples are Bruce Wayne's many, many love interests from 1970-2000s when Catwoman fully took the role as his primary love interest.

Trish Q over in the Bendis Superman books has already vanished. Do you remember Misfit from Birds of Prey? What about Jarro from the Snyder JL run? Mia from the Smith GA run? Where are they lately?

Duke's hung on, but his creator was the architecht of the universe and after that it was his protoge, so most of us just see a machine that always runs on time starting to turn its gears and that's where it comes from. It's more cynicism than anything else, though his identity shift from We Are Robin to Lark to The Signal in rapid succession did come across a bit as "we don't know what to do with Duke," much like what has been going on with Tim Drake before DC pulled the trigger to make him their queer male in the Bat family.

What I'll say in Duke's defense (and some others like Emiko Queen) is that they've luckily found some writers who actually want to use them (Brandon Thomas in Duke's case) and that bodes well for sticking around. As long as he has a writer to champion him, he stands a better chance at sticking around long-term.

I don't personally care for Duke one way or another, I have no vested interest in seeing him gone nor succeed, but for what it's worth I think he's having a better time of sticking around once his creator+next team grace period vanishes. That's a good sign for his fans, if nothing else.

Batman and Harley should get together.

Thank you for providing the perfect summation of what a wrong opinion looks like.

[Restingvoice]

Jason hasn't shared a scene with Scarlet since pre-FP. I doubt she's even canon now. Clownhunter hasn't shared more than two panels with Jason in hall his story. Heck, Duke has shared more time with Jason than him, and he's Bruce's fam.

Jason has a cast of characters, but those aren't his, that's for sure. The all caste, for example. Essence, too. Numbers, or the girl from the last two issues of RHATO that I can't remember her name, the kids from the XMen-like academy, the woman from that mercenary agency in RH/A, Tyler from Urban Legends, Willis Todd, Ma Gunn and her grandaughter Faye, Isabel... Lobdell gave him a ton of support cast, but not only him. Williamson and Rosenberg are probably going to give him a few in the end, too, like the Arkhan Knight.

And Tim too, has his large list of original support regulars. And Dick. And Kate has Rene and her actual family.

No, she's probably not, but there's always a way to bring someone back if Lobdell can bring Isabel back.

Yes, but I'm considering where his placement is in the future if he wants to survive the changing of authors.

You know what, true, I'll add Essence, Duela, and the kids too. I'm imagining if each of the family head has a book. So Suzie, Faye, and Isabel are in as well, but this is a list of costumes. So I didn't include characters like Gordons and Pennyworths.

I'll add Robin fam while I'm at it
- Damian
- Maya
- Colin Wilkes

So that leaves Bat fam with
- Bruce
- Tim
- Duke

Pretty small now, that should satisfy people

Thank you for providing the perfect summation of what a wrong opinion looks like.

Well he does need therapy

[Frontier]

Duke's hung on, but his creator was the architecht of the universe and after that it was his protoge, so most of us just see a machine that always runs on time starting to turn its gears and that's where it comes from. It's more cynicism than anything else, though his identity shift from We Are Robin to Lark to The Signal in rapid succession did come across a bit as "we don't know what to do with Duke," much like what has been going on with Tim Drake before DC pulled the trigger to make him their queer male in the Bat family.

Phrasing it like that is what makes it feel gimmicky to me.

[marhawkman]

Well if that's the case I'm adding Cass to the sixth since she's supposed to be adopted before the Reboot happened.

Otherwise, it goes like this.

The Fox Fam
- Jace
- Luke
- Tiffany

The Babs Fam (The Birds)
- Babs
- Cass
- Steph
- Helena
- Harper

The Hood Fam
- Jason
- Scarlet
- Clownhunter

The Kane Fam
- Kate
- Bette

The Bat Fam
- Bruce
- Tim
- Damian
- Duke

The Wing Fam
- Nightwing
- Defacer
- The Run-Offs

The Sirens
- Harley
- Ivy
- Bella

The Cat Fam
- Selina
- Holly
- Kitrina

The Outsiders
- Black Lightning
- Katana
- Ghost-Maker
- Azrael

You left Misfit out of the Birds. (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)

[Fire Angel]

You left Misfit out of the Birds. (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)

She is a misfit so she does not fit in.

[Robanker]

Phrasing it like that is what makes it feel gimmicky to me.

It's gimmicky, sure, but I also can see it with Tim whereas with others (Dick is one commonly brought up) I just don't.

[SiegePerilous02]

The thing is, Azrael's got the flaming sword visual which keeps him alive. Both iterations of Azrael wisely kept that. I don't know that Duke even has that going for him.

There is that. Flaming swords are always a cool visual.

I guess Duke has a yellow costume in a season of blacks, reds and blues? IDK.

It's gimmicky, sure, but I also can see it with Tim whereas with others (Dick is one commonly brought up) I just don't.

In fairness, everything in superhero comics is a gimmick to one degree or another.

I think the internet pretty much views all superheroes as at least bisexual. Considering all these ridiculously pretty people in skin tight costumes getting tied up together and having intense face to face encounters, I can somewhat see the logic

[Robanker]

There is that. Flaming swords are always a cool visual.

I guess Duke has a yellow costume in a season of blacks, reds and blues? IDK.



In fairness, everything in superhero comics is a gimmick to one degree or another.

I think the internet pretty much views all superheroes as at least bisexual. Considering all these ridiculously pretty people in skin tight costumes getting tied up together and having intense face to face encounters, I can somewhat see the logic

The internet views all characters as whatever best fits their ships of interest. It's never been exclusive to superheroes. Hell, the characters need not even interact half the time. lol

Every character is more or less coded for whatever you want them to be. The X-Men are the ur-example. They're coded for every marginalized group because they're a marginalized group and when you look at that from the perspective of a specific angle, it works. I had many friends tell me the X-Men are black, Jewish, gay, etc. It just comes down to "they're outsiders unjustly excluded because they're different" and this is the particular group I identify with most, so that's what I see.

Same with lots of the relationships that get interpreted as sexual or romantic (and I don't just mean queer ones). A good example is Jon and Kathy from the Rebirth run of Superman. By all accounts, they're pretty much just friends, but a lot of people read "childhood budding romance" because they wanted to see it there. Likewise, Clark and Bruce are practically brothers, but some read them as having repressed sexual feelings because there's a strong bond that holds them together. If you ask some people, they're just close friends. If you ask others, they're queer-coded. It's a matter or perspective, and the internet has long been a place where people feel emboldened to share their opinions on what they see.

With Clark and Bruce, however, there's always that exceptionally melodramatic page where Bruce tells Alfred to screen Clark's call and Clark tears up. I don't think you can read that one any differently than soap opera romance, but over their history I think it's pretty conclusively proven where their interests lie and it's not with each other. The internet does seem preoccupied more with sexual/romantic relationships than any other, so if you see anyone with a significant bond, someone ships them. My brief interactions with the Supernatural community tells me that being blood brothers isn't enough to deter that, so take that as you will.

My read on Tim wasn't queer, but his handling of Conner's death and the fallout afterward did feel like there was more there so I see it because of that.