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  1. #3106
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    You left Misfit out of the Birds. (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)
    I wasn't sure if she's from the Bat franchise or others like Black Canary and Zinda

  2. #3107
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Same with lots of the relationships that get interpreted as sexual or romantic (and I don't just mean queer ones). A good example is Jon and Kathy from the Rebirth run of Superman. By all accounts, they're pretty much just friends, but a lot of people read "childhood budding romance" because they wanted to see it there. Likewise, Clark and Bruce are practically brothers, but some read them as having repressed sexual feelings because there's a strong bond that holds them together. If you ask some people, they're just close friends. If you ask others, they're queer-coded. It's a matter or perspective, and the internet has long been a place where people feel emboldened to share their opinions on what they see.

    With Clark and Bruce, however, there's always that exceptionally melodramatic page where Bruce tells Alfred to screen Clark's call and Clark tears up. I don't think you can read that one any differently than soap opera romance, but over their history I think it's pretty conclusively proven where their interests lie and it's not with each other. The internet does seem preoccupied more with sexual/romantic relationships than any other, so if you see anyone with a significant bond, someone ships them. My brief interactions with the Supernatural community tells me that being blood brothers isn't enough to deter that, so take that as you will.
    You should see some of the on-panel stuff for Cap and Iron Man.
    My read on Tim wasn't queer, but his handling of Conner's death and the fallout afterward did feel like there was more there so I see it because of that.
    I always read the "more" to be the fact that Conner was the last in a string of him losing loved ones and people close to him in quick order (his dad, Steph, then Conner...maybe someone else I'm missing. I guess Cass turning evil? I forget the timeframe for that).

  3. #3108
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    You should see some of the on-panel stuff for Cap and Iron Man.

    I always read the "more" to be the fact that Conner was the last in a string of him losing loved ones and people close to him in quick order (his dad, Steph, then Conner...maybe someone else I'm missing. I guess Cass turning evil? I forget the timeframe for that).
    Please. I'm a Star Trek TOS fan. This stuff is mild compared to that.
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  4. #3109
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Please. I'm a Star Trek TOS fan. This stuff is mild compared to that.
    I've watched many an anime .

  5. #3110
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The internet views all characters as whatever best fits their ships of interest. It's never been exclusive to superheroes. Hell, the characters need not even interact half the time. lol

    Every character is more or less coded for whatever you want them to be. The X-Men are the ur-example. They're coded for every marginalized group because they're a marginalized group and when you look at that from the perspective of a specific angle, it works. I had many friends tell me the X-Men are black, Jewish, gay, etc. It just comes down to "they're outsiders unjustly excluded because they're different" and this is the particular group I identify with most, so that's what I see.

    Same with lots of the relationships that get interpreted as sexual or romantic (and I don't just mean queer ones). A good example is Jon and Kathy from the Rebirth run of Superman. By all accounts, they're pretty much just friends, but a lot of people read "childhood budding romance" because they wanted to see it there. Likewise, Clark and Bruce are practically brothers, but some read them as having repressed sexual feelings because there's a strong bond that holds them together. If you ask some people, they're just close friends. If you ask others, they're queer-coded. It's a matter or perspective, and the internet has long been a place where people feel emboldened to share their opinions on what they see.

    With Clark and Bruce, however, there's always that exceptionally melodramatic page where Bruce tells Alfred to screen Clark's call and Clark tears up. I don't think you can read that one any differently than soap opera romance, but over their history I think it's pretty conclusively proven where their interests lie and it's not with each other. The internet does seem preoccupied more with sexual/romantic relationships than any other, so if you see anyone with a significant bond, someone ships them. My brief interactions with the Supernatural community tells me that being blood brothers isn't enough to deter that, so take that as you will.

    My read on Tim wasn't queer, but his handling of Conner's death and the fallout afterward did feel like there was more there so I see it because of that.
    Like you say, I never really get the appeal of incest ships. Be it the Supernatural brothers as the big one, the people who shipped Jon and Sansa on GOT (be they under the impression they were half siblings or cousins, either way), the siblings in the Narnia books, Shinji and Rei (she's a clone of his mom), etc. it's all SUPER weird and uncomfortable. For the characters who never interact, that one is weird by I theorize it may have something to do with a person identifying/seeing themselves in one character and being attracted to another, so they ship it for a vicarious thing even when the characters barely (if ever) interact.

    Canonically yeah, Bruce and Clark are pretty much straight and view each other as brother figures and fans "ship" them largely as a laugh at their super intense melodramatic bond. It's a case that if DC would ever pull the trigger we have some examples to fall back on, but we all collectively know they never seriously would.

    But with all the inherent camp and bright colors and spandex and muscular pretty people...the genre as a whole is inherently a little bit gay lol. So I can see why it attracts these readings just as much (if not a little more) than other genres.

  6. #3111
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Like you say, I never really get the appeal of incest ships. Be it the Supernatural brothers as the big one, the people who shipped Jon and Sansa on GOT (be they under the impression they were half siblings or cousins, either way), the siblings in the Narnia books, Shinji and Rei (she's a clone of his mom), etc. it's all SUPER weird and uncomfortable. For the characters who never interact, that one is weird by I theorize it may have something to do with a person identifying/seeing themselves in one character and being attracted to another, so they ship it for a vicarious thing even when the characters barely (if ever) interact.

    Canonically yeah, Bruce and Clark are pretty much straight and view each other as brother figures and fans "ship" them largely as a laugh at their super intense melodramatic bond. It's a case that if DC would ever pull the trigger we have some examples to fall back on, but we all collectively know they never seriously would.

    But with all the inherent camp and bright colors and spandex and muscular pretty people...the genre as a whole is inherently a little bit gay lol. So I can see why it attracts these readings just as much (if not a little more) than other genres.
    Oh, there's a lot that's homoerotic about superhero comics.

    But my argument is that shipping seldom comes from places that makes sense as opposed to who the person likes seeing together or if someone has a self-insert character (Bruce Timm and Batman) and wanting to live vicariously through them.

    The checklist usually feels like "did they talk to each other? I can ship it."

    Some ships are very well-thought out and make a lot of sense, but I don't look at the wants of the internet to naturally mean it's supported in the material or that it's a good idea. The internet wants what it wants. There's a reason these books have editors and aren't just crowdsourced using stawpolls, you know?
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  7. #3112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Oh, there's a lot that's homoerotic about superhero comics.

    But my argument is that shipping seldom comes from places that makes sense as opposed to who the person likes seeing together or if someone has a self-insert character (Bruce Timm and Batman) and wanting to live vicariously through them.

    The checklist usually feels like "did they talk to each other? I can ship it."

    Some ships are very well-thought out and make a lot of sense, but I don't look at the wants of the internet to naturally mean it's supported in the material or that it's a good idea. The internet wants what it wants. There's a reason these books have editors and aren't just crowdsourced using stawpolls, you know?
    Forget “did they talk to each other;” it only needs them to exist and be pretty enough. And sometimes not even that. And all too often, it only gets supercharged if you try to make it antagonistic - even violently, loathsomely so.

    Trust me; I made the mistake of watching The Last Jedi expecting Rey to still treat Kylo like a Neo-Nazi School Shooter whole tortured her and violated her friends.

    With Batman and his associates, the fact they’re supposed to be edgy and angsty means that they can have sexual chemistry with inanimate objects in ‘shippers eyes. Throw in anyone else with a colorful suits, and there’s probably at least a hundred fanfics about it, if not thousands.

    The existence of the Batman/Joker ‘ship tells you all you need to know.
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  8. #3113
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The existence of the Batman/Joker ‘ship tells you all you need to know.
    Oh yeah, writers really like playing off the Batman/Joker subtext.

  9. #3114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Oh yeah, writers really like playing off the Batman/Joker subtext.
    I think there's a fine line the writers should walk here. I love like the idea that Batman and Joker are these nemesis-soulmates, and that the Joker takes that very seriously. Not in a sexual way in any shape or form, but just that they have this kind of back-and-forth going on like old friends. It's corny and over-melodramatic in a funny way, which is what a Joker story should be. He enjoys the time he spends with Bats, and to him it's a game, and it's all in great fun, while for everyone else it's a tragedy.

    This only works because the Joker is the Joker, of course. This doesn't really fit, say, Lex and Supes.

  10. #3115
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I wasn't sure if she's from the Bat franchise or others like Black Canary and Zinda
    She was actually a new character introduced in Birds of Prey specifically to annoy Barbara by trying to be Batgirl. So Barbara shows Charlie a bunch of pictures of what happens to people named "Batgirl". Charlie nearly pukes then promises to never use the name Batgirl again..... If you were paying attention, you're probably wondering why I haven't said anything about her "Misfit" codename... yeah... well that's what she does after she stops being Batgirl.

  11. #3116
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    The really exceptional modern adaptations of Joker in other media owe little to the comics as it what makes them entertaining is largely due to skill of the actor playing him like Nicolson just playing himself, Ledger, and Phoenix just riffing on early DeNiro roles.

    Trying to do a modern accurate to the comics Joker just gets you Leto's Joker.

  12. #3117
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The really exceptional modern adaptations of Joker in other media owe little to the comics as it what makes them entertaining is largely due to skill of the actor playing him like Nicolson just playing himself, Ledger, and Phoenix just riffing on early DeNiro roles.

    Trying to do a modern accurate to the comics Joker just gets you Leto's Joker.
    Nicholson was really playing himself :P?

    A lot of people seem to prefer comic Joker ala B:TAS Joker instead of the more try-hard Jokers.

  13. #3118
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Nicholson was really playing himself :P?

    A lot of people seem to prefer comic Joker ala B:TAS Joker instead of the more try-hard Jokers.
    More like it's not that different a performance from what he usually gives by that point in his career.

    And I guess time to gut this sacred cow, but I've never gotten what made DCAU Joker "definitive". Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the B:TAS so I have no real particular reverence for it.

  14. #3119
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    More like it's not that different a performance from what he usually gives by that point in his career.

    And I guess time to gut this sacred cow, but I've never gotten what made DCAU Joker "definitive". Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with the B:TAS so I have no real particular reverence for it.
    I know you enjoyed Joker in The Batman cartoon and I've always felt personality-wise they were pretty similar.

    DCAU Joker is usually seen as definitive for Mark Hamill's performance and how he personified a lot of recognizable Joker stuff for audiences at the time.

  15. #3120
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Trying to do a modern accurate to the comics Joker just gets you Leto's Joker.
    Okay, I might not keep up with the basic in continuity comics as much (think the most recent in continuity Joker I read was War of Jokes and Riddles) but there's no way modern accurate to comics Joker is Leto's.

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