Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Tzigone]

Your whole argument still seems to be entirely how you define the phrases "emotionally healthy" and "processed grief". Not only that, but because everyone processes grief differently and there are instances where it takes time to manifest itself, it's entirely believable that he would undergo a change like that over time. I don't really see him as being stuck in the past or not having healthy relationships. You have whatever he's got going on with Catwoman, which I don't think would be possible if those statements were true.

I just can't agree. He was estranged from Dick for a while post-COIE, and then took in Jason (to fill the empty role of Robin) because he missed Dick. He unilaterally orders Dick to abandon whatever is going on in his own life to take back Blackgate in NML and then basically hangs up on Dick when Dick objects. He's very dictatorial with the others at times. He spies on Barbara in early BoP. He hangs up on her when she asks about how he got healed after broken back. He did a freaking creepy test on Tim for Tim's sixteenth birthday. When Gordon got shot, he reacted so badly (and with so little regard for Barbara's emotional needs) that Alfred called him on that crap. Then, after Alfred had left and was valeting for Tim - when Bruce didn't know where Tim was, he outed Tim's secret identity to Steph, just because he was too damn chicken to talk to Alfred and get an answer from him. Oh, and then there's how he treated Steph and Tim after Tim quit being Robin. And his desire to keep Cass from having a social life/interacting with other teen heroes there for a while. The early 2000s really were terrible.

He used to be friends with and respect other JL members - since COIE (or probably a little earlier), he's frequently (though not consistently) regarded them with distrust and/or disdain. His trust levels in all those around him - Batfamily or other - have plummeted. Though I suppose with how often heroes go evil these days...

And the entire King relationship depiction with Selina was very unhealthy. Her as the only light, the only happiness in his life, etc. I like BatCat - or at least the idea of it - and I hated it. And that was hardly the only emotionally unhealthy aspect to the character that King depicted.

[Micael]

The worst part about emotionally detached batman is that to many people that's all they know the character to be.

[The True Detective]

Within the fiction, dressing as a bat was totally sane and worked well (same for all the others who became costumed heroes of the era). He was treated - by the writers and other characters - as completely mentally healthy. There was no indication he hadn't processed his grief in earlier days. He grieved, yes. He still took actions as a result of that horrible event (to fight crime and protect others from the same fate). But he wasn't stuck on it like his is now. He wasn't still living in the family estate - bought a new house as an adult - and I don't think he had big portraits of them. He didn't dwell in the past as much. He had healthy relationships in the present. And Bruce was more Bruce than Brucie in his personal interactions with others.

When has it ever been shown that dressing up as a bat was sane? It's not like dressing up in a costume was a common thing the average person did. " Hey Bill, I'll meet you at the bar in a half an hour, I gotta go change into my bald eagle costume." It was clearly odd in universe just not made a big deal of.

Why is it bad to be "stuck on" such a terrible event? It wasn't some small time thing. You make it seem like a classmate didn't invite him to their party when he was 10 and he's held onto the resentment into adulthood. I'm sure anyone who has witnessed violent crime irl, especially as kids, don't move on so easily. Imagine if Caroline Kennedy was in the motorcade when JFK was shot and being told to move past it if she still had lingering anger. It's not that easy.

Also regarding his not being seen as mentally unhealthy in the past, ya don't say, he also would kill, use a gun and threaten to spank Catwoman like a condescending sexist jackass. Franchises evolve over time. There was a lot less thought put into his characterization back then in general. Was Green Arrow an arrogant loudmouth liberal in his early days? Nope but that shouldn't mean his current incarnation is any less valid just because he wasn't like this in the beginning.

[JediBatman54]

I want Batman to be terrifying like his villains

[phonogram12]

I'm not gonna lie - I'm probably very influenced by when I started reading comics. While I generally do like my Batman to be at least somewhat of a jerk (the Timmverse version, Greg Rucka's version, and Morrison's JLA version (who even had a bit of a sense of humor)), writers who I think really got a handle on a warmer Batman include: Mike W. Barr, Alan Grant, Steve Englehart, the animated The Batman version, the animated Batman the Brave & the Bold version, and hell, even the Batman '66 version.

I honestly can't think of many examples of Batman being super warm to the JL that I like, but I can point out where I think certain writers have taken it too far. As much as I loved Dave Gibbons and Steve Rude's World's Finest mini from some decades back, even I thought he was a bit harsh towards Clark. And as much as I enjoyed and understood that they were ideologically at odds, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said about Miller's version of the World's Finest. From what I've read of Geoff Johns' version of his relationship with the JL...no thanks. Brian Meltzer - I think that one's obvious.

[sunofdarkchild]

There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family. In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods. There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern. When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis. Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy. He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can. If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.

[phonogram12]

There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family. In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods. There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern. When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis. Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy. He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can. If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.

This is an incredibly good point. Like when comedians poke fun at the less privileged rather than the one's who have all the privilege in the world. In a perfect world, it would be more similar to this meme I've seen about the MCU's Black Panther. Nearly everywhere else around the world, T'Challa is revered and is shown the utmost respect. But when he's around his family or friends within Wakanda that know him best, he gets poked fun of mercilessly.

[TheRay]

He used to be friends with and respect other JL members - since COIE (or probably a little earlier), he's frequently (though not consistently) regarded them with distrust and/or disdain. His trust levels in all those around him

When in the world has he ever had anything more than 0 trust in others?

[MajorHoy]

When in the world has he ever had anything more than 0 trust in others?

You never read all those past Batman and Superman team-ups prior to CoIE I take it . . .

[JediBatman54]

Killing Joke is the canon ending of the Batman franchise

[TheRay]

Tomasi is one of my favorite writers

[Agent Z]

There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family. In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods. There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern. When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis. Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy. He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can. If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.

Bruce acting like a jerk to the League becomes less and less cathartic when the League rarely ever does anything to deserve it and Bruce is just as godlike in how DC reveres him.

[Restingvoice]

There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family. In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods. There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern.

That would apply if the powered ones are jerks and bullies, if they're Super Friends then Nah.

Unless you're talking about inner fandom war where the fans of the powered ones are being annoying.

Bruce acting like a jerk to the League becomes less and less cathartic when the League rarely ever does anything to deserve it

yeah like so

[The World]

I'm not gonna lie - I'm probably very influenced by when I started reading comics. While I generally do like my Batman to be at least somewhat of a jerk (the Timmverse version, Greg Rucka's version, and Morrison's JLA version (who even had a bit of a sense of humor)), writers who I think really got a handle on a warmer Batman include: Mike W. Barr, Alan Grant, Steve Englehart, the animated The Batman version, the animated Batman the Brave & the Bold version, and hell, even the Batman '66 version.

I honestly can't think of many examples of Batman being super warm to the JL that I like, but I can point out where I think certain writers have taken it too far. As much as I loved Dave Gibbons and Steve Rude's World's Finest mini from some decades back, even I thought he was a bit harsh towards Clark. And as much as I enjoyed and understood that they were ideologically at odds, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said about Miller's version of the World's Finest. From what I've read of Geoff Johns' version of his relationship with the JL...no thanks. Brian Meltzer - I think that one's obvious.

There's an appeal to Batman being a jerk to the Justice League that doesn't exist with the bat-family. In the Justice League he's the normal one among gods. There's a certain catharsis to a Batman or a Green Arrow coming out on top over the likes of Superman and Green Lantern. When he's a similar jerk to the bat-family there's no such catharsis. Instead of getting one over on god-like beings and representing the little guy, he's punching down at the little guy. He's a rich a-hole who's being mean children who look up to him or to people who weren't born millionaires like him because he can. If anything the catharsis comes when a Robin or a Spoiler gets one up over Batman.

This is an incredibly good point. Like when comedians poke fun at the less privileged rather than the one's who have all the privilege in the world. In a perfect world, it would be more similar to this meme I've seen about the MCU's Black Panther. Nearly everywhere else around the world, T'Challa is revered and is shown the utmost respect. But when he's around his family or friends within Wakanda that know him best, he gets poked fun of mercilessly.

Jesus Christ. The Boys really wasn't that much of an exaggeration of modern superheroes. A bunch of rich, superpowered, or rich and superpowered ego maniacal, sociopaths more concerned with their pride or stardom than helping anyone. Modern Bruce is probably one sexual harrasment suit away from being every slimy CEO on tv, he's not the little guy and he never has been, just a convenient idol for readers to project their insecurities onto.

The sooner Superman give Bruce the Omni-Man treatment the sooner everyone can get over themselves about the power gap between them.

[Agent Z]

Jesus Christ. The Boys really wasn't that much of an exaggeration of modern superheroes. A bunch of rich, superpowered, or rich and superpowered ego maniacal, sociopaths more concerned with their pride or stardom than helping anyone. Modern Bruce is probably one sexual harrasment suit away from being every slimy CEO on tv, he's not the little guy and he never has been, just a convenient idol for readers to project their insecurities onto.

The sooner Superman give Bruce the Omni-Man treatment the sooner everyone can get over themselves about the power gap between them.

So which one is it? Are modern superheroes too arrogant and obsessed with stardom or a bunch of wimps who let others walk over them?