Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[TheRay]

I think if we need a relationship for Bruce, and I think that’s in question, then why don’t we consider Alfred?

[Iclifton]

I think if we need a relationship for Bruce, and I think that’s in question, then why don’t we consider Alfred?

Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.

My controversial Batfam opinion is, if DC`s not going to make Red Hood and Tim have a more unique status quo or position in the family they should simplify and just make the only two Robins Dick and Damien.

[TheRay]

Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.

I agree with you, but the last time the subject of Alfred came up people were quick to point out that he wasn’t always like that and some people don’t even support that version of the character.

[Zaresh]

Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.

My controversial Batfam opinion is, if DC`s not going to make Red Hood and Tim have a more unique status quo or position in the family they should simplify and just make the only two Robins Dick and Damien.

Jason is perfectly fine right now, thank you.

[MajorHoy]

I think if we need a relationship for Bruce, and I think that’s in question, then why don’t we consider Alfred?

Because that's his father figure and that would be gross.

Plus, if you really want to add to the "GROSS!" factor, . . .
. . . isn't Alfred still dead at the moment?

[Iclifton]

Jason is perfectly fine right now, thank you.

Is that your controversial opinion?

[Zaresh]

Is that your controversial opinion?

It's a fact.
If you're a fan of Jason, he's living a really sweet time. Last works he was in, have been well received by reviewers and fans: Urban Legends Cheer, Get Joker, Robins, Future State Gotham and now Task Force Z had reaped pretty solid or at least good reviews, and you can find a lot of people enjoying them and even recommending them. If that wasn't enough, he is part of the Titans United team book, and the Robins mini, and is going to have two new books wherein he will be either a regular or a main character: a 6 issues new mini story by Shawn Martinbrough, and the Beyond White Knight series, where he will be a prominent support role for either Bruce or Terry as much as Dick, if the preview and the cover are any indication. He's in a well established post as the more gray and antiheroic character in the batfam core, the one who gets dirty if he needs to, the troubled and struggling character because of his choices, and the one who works in the margins. And if that wasn't enough, he has had an (TW for opinions: awful) main role in the third season of (TW for opinions: the also awful) Titans show (why this one can't be as good as Doom Patrol? Sigh). He will also be one of the leads in the upcoming video game, shows up in a few other books, did great in Nightwing's last annual despite the caution both fanbases held and is one of the faves by the readers in that funny webtoon.

Unless you happen to dislike everything and can't enjoy a thing in the list. Or hope for him to be a villain, or a psycho. Or something.

So yeah, he's doing perfectly fine.

Compare him to more than 3/4 of the other characters in DC. Including most C listers. And even a bunch of Bs. He's doing way better. And most people are enjoying it too.

Edit: I mean, I get it's your controversial opinion (didn't get at the start, to be honest; but I get it now). I just, disagree in a point you make on it.

Plus, if you really want to add to the "GROSS!" factor, . . .
. . . isn't Alfred still dead at the moment?

That's actually true.
It's just so unlikely to last, that I guess no one remembers it's still a thing.

[Morgoth]

My controversial Batfam opinion is, if DC`s not going to make Red Hood and Tim have a more unique status quo or position in the family they should simplify and just make the only two Robins Dick and Damien.

Well, it seems like DCAMU writers agree with your opinion.

[phonogram12]

Well, it seems like DCAMU writers agree with your opinion.

Which is just one of the reasons I don't think it's particularly entertaining.

[Iclifton]

It's a fact.
If you're a fan of Jason, he's living a really sweet time. Last works he was in, have been well received by reviewers and fans: Urban Legends Cheer, Get Joker, Robins, Future State Gotham and now Task Force Z had reaped pretty solid or at least good reviews, and you can find a lot of people enjoying them and even recommending them. If that wasn't enough, he is part of the Titans United team book, and the Robins mini, and is going to have two new books wherein he will be either a regular or a main character: a 6 issues new mini story by Shawn Martinbrough, and the Beyond White Knight series, where he will be a prominent support role for either Bruce or Terry as much as Dick, if the preview and the cover are any indication. He's in a well established post as the more gray and antiheroic character in the batfam core, the one who gets dirty if he needs to, the troubled and struggling character because of his choices, and the one who works in the margins. And if that wasn't enough, he has had an (TW for opinions: awful) main role in the third season of (TW for opinions: the also awful) Titans show (why this one can't be as good as Doom Patrol? Sigh). He will also be one of the leads in the upcoming video game, shows up in a few other books, did great in Nightwing's last annual despite the caution both fanbases held and is one of the faves by the readers in that funny webtoon.

Unless you happen to dislike everything and can't enjoy a thing in the list. Or hope for him to be a villain, or a psycho. Or something.

So yeah, he's doing perfectly fine.

Compare him to more than 3/4 of the other characters in DC. Including most C listers. And even a bunch of Bs. He's doing way better. And most people are enjoying it too.

Edit: I mean, I get it's your controversial opinion (didn't get at the start, to be honest; but I get it now). I just, disagree in a point you make on it.



That's actually true.
It's just so unlikely to last, that I guess no one remembers it's still a thing.

Yes, but that's what makes it controversial. I think Jason has more value as an anti-hero willing to kill. That's the version other media is going to go with. The Crowbar full-time Batfamily Red Hood is not interesting to me. I like "Get Joker" but that's about it. I think he stands out as a character when he is a little closer to his animated Under The Red Hood adaption. But hey, if you like it, more power to you.

That's great that he's appearing in mini`s but wouldn`t it be better if he had his own full time solo. The more different/darker his status quo, the more his book stands apart from Nightwing. I feel like since becoming so restrained Jason has lost a lot of potential fans.

[Zaresh]

Yes, but that's what makes it controversial. I think Jason has more value as an anti-hero willing to kill. That's the version other media is going to go with. The Crowbar full-time Batfamily Red Hood is not interesting to me. I like "Get Joker" but that's about it. I think he stands out as a character when he is a little closer to his animated Under The Red Hood adaption. But hey, if you like it, more power to you.

That's great that he's appearing in mini`s but wouldn`t it be better if he had his own full time solo. The more different/darker his status quo, the more his book stands apart from Nightwing. I feel like since becoming so restrained Jason has lost a lot of potential fans.

I don't know about a regular series. With minis and limited series like Task Force Z, at least we have some guaranteed planning and quality supervision. With an ongoing, that no doubt will be hijacked by the many events they do every year, nothing is guaranteed. Also, it's more likely that a good writer will get involved with a closed book than with a long term one. I'm a big fan of Moon Knight, a character Jason shares a lot of traits with, and we've gotten regular minis and limited or short ongoings with a steady regularity for years. It works well, and I suspect it can work too for Jason.

Of course, having the luck of a really good ongoing would be great, yeah. But, what are the chances? Look at Superman or Batgirl, ot the Titans: how they have fared, and those are A listers. I don't know. For me, these limited series have been pretty good so far, I don't know if I would risk for an ongoing until it's a team I trust and I have the promise that it's not going to be derailled by events. Also, because minis change writers, they feel varied: not the same story beats and hits repeated because the writers can't come with new stories to tell. Creativity has limits for a person. Aaand, they're easier to collect, follow and purchase or pass, to be absolutely honest. If I don't like one, I don't buy it. I also like that part.

The realistic guns aren't coming back. New politics in comics demand the good guys to not use them. And, well, it will be a while until Jason can or is allowed to kill anyone for good. Let alone they to be actual named characters: not going to happen, unless it's for a very planned story arc or a black label book. I suspect the closest we will have is stuff like what he did in Task Force Z, with Jason killing those cobra cult zombied tugs and then zombied Bane.

Not until they decide to once again repeat the same old story of Jason breaking with the fam, which, at this point, I think needs to rest for a few years. You can write a very good story for it again, but in my opinion it needs proper building. And that takes time. Give it time.

(To be honest, I'm alright with how he's now, though: it feels like progression in his character, and I'm all about character evolution, as impossible as it is to acchieve and keep in corporate comics. But I get it that it is an actual point many readers like about Jason: that he is willed to kill. And it's not like he actually sign out from thinking some people are better dead. I think he said something like that in the last issue of Cheer. Anyways, I don't hold hopes for this new status to last forever. I expect him to kill again in a few years. I hope at least is for a good story)

As for the Nightwing comparison, I think, as Jason is now, looking at how he reads in his books, he's still different than any of the other characters in the fam. He doesn't talk like Dick, behaves or reacts like him, doesn't have the same kind of interactions with other characters either, and he has to face a different set of challenges because of his very different backstory and history. That ultimately makes for different stories if the writer wants to write them. He also plays dirtier than Dick, which helps. I don't think he would have the same dynamic with the other characters in his current book or in Future State Gotham if he were Dick. I know you're not alone in your opinion, though: many people keep saying that lately. But I have to disagree.

[Iclifton]

I don't know about a regular series. With minis and limited series like Task Force Z, at least we have some guaranteed planning and quality supervision. With an ongoing, that no doubt will be hijacked by the many events they do every year, nothing is guaranteed. Also, it's more likely that a good writer will get involved with a closed book than with a long term one. I'm a big fan of Moon Knight, a character Jason shares a lot of traits with, and we've gotten regular minis and limited or short ongoings with a steady regularity for years. It works well, and I suspect it can work too for Jason.

Of course, having the luck of a really good ongoing would be great, yeah. But, what are the chances? Look at Superman or Batgirl, ot the Titans: how they have fared, and those are A listers. I don't know. For me, these limited series have been pretty good so far, I don't know if I would risk for an ongojng until it's a team I trust and I have the promise that it's not going to be derailled by any event. Also, because they change writeds, they feel varied: not the same story beats and hits repeated because the writers can't come with new stories to tell. Creativity has limits for a person. Aaand, they're easier to collect, follow and purchase or not, to be absolutely honest. I also like that part.

The realistic guns aren't coming back. New politics in comics demand the good guys to not use them. And, well, it will be a while until Jason can or is allowed to kill anyone for good. Let alone they to be actual named characters: not going to happen, unless it's for a very planned story arc or a black label book. I suspect the closest we will have is stuff like what he was in Task Forze Z, with Jason killing those cobra cult zombied tugs and then zombied Bane.

Not until they decide to once again repeat the same old story of Jason breaking with the fam, which, at this point, I think needs to rest for a few years. You can write a very good story for it again, but in my opinion it needs proper building. And that takes time. Give it time.

As for the Nightwing comparison, I think, as Jason is now, looking at how he reads in his books, he's still plenty different than any of the other characters in the fam (he's a bit like Kate, I guess, though. But Kate's fans probably disagree). He's doesn't talk like Dick, behaves or reacts like him, doesn't have the same kind of interactions with other characters either, and he has to face a different set of challenges because of his very different backstory and history. That ultimately makes for different stories if the writer want him to write them. He also plays dirtier than Dick, which helps. I don't think Dick would have the same dynamic with the othercharacters in his current book or in Future State Gotham if he were Dick. I know you're not alone in your opinion, though: many people keep saying that lately. ButI I have to disagree.

Personally I would always prefer an ongoing. Eventually you will get a stellar run that goes longer than a mini. Especially if DC actually wants to push the character. All of the characters mentioned above had some bad runs. They have also had a good runs. But like I said, f you like things how they are, more power to you.

Deathstroke still uses guns and he is not a straight super villain. He also consistently has a book. Something like this would be my preference for Jason. But I am not too hung up on the guns. More the costume and lethal force.

[Zaresh]

Personally I would always prefer an ongoing. Eventually you will get a stellar run that goes longer than a mini. Especially if DC actually wants you to push you. All of the characers mentioned above had some bad runs. They have also had a good runs. But like I said, f you like things how they are, more power to you.

Deathstroke still uses guns and he is not a straight super villain. He also consistently has a book. Something like this would be my preference for Jason. But I am not too hung up on the guns. More the costume and lethal force.

A bad run that runs for too long can kill a character. If not for the undieing and big fanbase Dick has, I don't think he would've survived his very, very unpopular Ric run. Wally didn't survive a chain of bad runs and was erased for several years, almost a decade.

Deathstroke is a villain, he just happens to be a protagonist villain. Like Lex Luthor, or like Doctor Doom in Marvel. And readers know. He's also an insanely popular character since the late 80's and the 90's, too, so he keeps getting ongoings every now and then.

(I edited my previous message before seeing your new message. Added things and erased other things. I'm sorry for the inconveniences)

[Iclifton]

One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings.

So I think this is where we get to our difference of opinion. I would prefer a Jason closer to Deathstroke. I want him to be a killer. One who believes he's doing the right thing. But still, a killer. A more balanced "Under The Red Hood " version. I have not been a fan of any of Jason`s developments since 2011. That's not to say he has not had good stories. Just that each development lead him a little further away from the version I found interesting again and again. When I read him now, he feels like a diet version of the him I prefer. But again, that's just my opinion. I'm obviously not as big of a fan of the character as you are.

[Zaresh]

One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings.

So I think this is where we get to our difference of opinion. I would prefer a Jason closer to Deathstroke. I want him to be a killer. One who believes he's doing the right thing. But still, a killer. A more balanced "Under The Red Hood " version. I have not been a fan of any of Jason`s developments since 2011. That's not to say he has not had good stories. Just that each development lead him a little further away from the version I found interesting again and again. When I read him now, he feels like a diet version of the him I prefer. But again, that's just my opinion. I'm obviously not as big of a fan of the character as you are.

Or you like him different. Hey, you like him a villain (edit: or very antagonistic towards the batfam, I guess), it's cool, too. He was a great antivillain in Under the Hood. It's just, I think that's asking for a stale status where he keeps being a one trick character that probably will serve as just fuel for another hero in one story where he's not the focus, and he's going to be presented as the one in the wrong (well, he is often enough even when he's rather heroic but does his thing, behaves like himself). That's not how you get an ongoing either. Or make him sympathetic to the audience readers. It's not going to work unless he becomes way, way more popular. Like Deathstroke, or like Puniaher, who has villanious traits, if you ask me, and sometimes has worked as just a villain (or maybe just very antagonistic) to other characters' stories even despite being that much popular.

Dick has a reading base that knows him as the OG Robin for the last 80 years, and became very, very popular in the 80's with the New Teen Titans and later in the 90's, with Dixon's Nightwing. The reason he keeps having an ongoing is because he is an A lister, he's popular since forever, and he keeps his fanbase stable. Jason can't compare.

(After reading myself, I feel like I'm trying to change your mind, but I don't want to. I just meant to point those points out. You are in your right for asking for what you ask, and I don't think it makes you a smaller fan either. A different kind of fan, but not smaller. And, well, if this is the case, that you like him as a very antagonistic vigilante, then yeah, he's not going great for you)