Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[WonderNight]

In Batman beyond Barbara full out confirms that she chose Bruce over Dick and became more than "a girlfriend" with him.



0:42 Seconds

Terry: So you and Dick Grayson, like, dated?
Barbara: In college. Puppy love. Later on we just never talked about it.
Terry: People should communicate more.
Barbara: Dick finally got fed up living in Batman's shadow. He decided to leave. He was hurt when I chose to stay behind with Bruce.
Terry: As his partner.
Barbara: *cheeky smirk*
Terry: His girlfriend?
Barbara: *takes a sip and gives a super cheeky smirk*
Terry: Whoa...

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

She chose Bruce over Dick. She only considered Dick college puppy love, nothing more.

Wow! It would be so funny if dick and diana ended up together because of this hahaha. He who laughs last!

Also is there more Bruce/babs content than dick/babs in out of comics/mainstream content?

[Godlike13]

The only actual Bruce/Babs content out of comics is that Killing Joke movie. Which pretty much just ensured there won't be anymore lol.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bruce/Babs may have worked in the context of her original pre-Crisis history, where she was already a grown woman and Bruce was in the vague late 20s/early 30s age bracket. And she wasn't a protégé of his. But that ship is long sailed.

Timm pulling the trigger on it after re-contextualizing Barbara as being Dick's age (if not slightly younger?), dating Dick and becoming Batman's sidekick and him mentoring her makes it significantly more icky. BTAS worked because while Barbara was written as having a crush on Batman, it wasn't presented as serious or her main motivation. It's notable I think that "Heart of Steel", "Shadow of the Bat" and "Batgirl Returns" were all written by a woman, Byrnne Chandler, who wrote Bruce as being oblivious to her crush while the story offers classic ship teasing between her and Dick (she seemingly can't stand him, they tease each other, they have some sweet moments right as her current more mature love interest/crush is revealed to be a crooked cop, etc). Then we got Timm getting to do more of his "vision" for them in TNBA and Beyond, and well...yeah.

Luckily Timm flew too close to the sun with TKJ, and we likely won't have to suffer through it again.

[godisawesome]

Bruce/Babs may have worked in the context of her original pre-Crisis history, where she was already a grown woman and Bruce was in the vague late 20s/early 30s age bracket. And she wasn't a protégé of his. But that ship is long sailed.

Timm pulling the trigger on it after re-contextualizing Barbara as being Dick's age (if not slightly younger?), dating Dick and becoming Batman's sidekick and him mentoring her makes it significantly more icky. BTAS worked because while Barbara was written as having a crush on Batman, it wasn't presented as serious or her main motivation. It's notable I think that "Heart of Steel", "Shadow of the Bat" and "Batgirl Returns" were all written by a woman, Byrnne Chandler, who wrote Bruce as being oblivious to her crush while the story offers classic ship teasing between her and Dick (she seemingly can't stand him, they tease each other, they have some sweet moments right as her current more mature love interest/crush is revealed to be a crooked cop, etc). Then we got Timm getting to do more of his "vision" for them in TNBA and Beyond, and well...yeah.

Luckily Timm flew too close to the sun with TKJ, and we likely won't have to suffer through it again.

Yeah, like I said earlier, the problem with Bruce/Babs is the horrifyingly disgusting way that it’s treated by guys like Timm, in particular because guys like Timm helped make the modern idea of Babs’s first years in Gotham, and thus helped to de-age Babs, make her Dick’s peer, and make her one of Bruce’s protégés - and thus set it up where the relationship kind of couldn’t escape unfortunate implications and problematic power dynamics… and that’s before Timm sort of revealed that he and his buddies like those same problematic elements.

It’s sort of a situation where it wasn’t that problematic in the initial portrayal from the comics, and now it sort of “has” to be.

[marhawkman]

Yeah, like I said earlier, the problem with Bruce/Babs is the horrifyingly disgusting way that it’s treated by guys like Timm, in particular because guys like Timm helped make the modern idea of Babs’s first years in Gotham, and thus helped to de-age Babs, make her Dick’s peer, and make her one of Bruce’s protégés - and thus set it up where the relationship kind of couldn’t escape unfortunate implications and problematic power dynamics… and that’s before Timm sort of revealed that he and his buddies like those same problematic elements.

It’s sort of a situation where it wasn’t that problematic in the initial portrayal from the comics, and now it sort of “has” to be.

well, look at the old Adam West Batman. Babs was more of an equal to Batman, and Robin was... Batman's teen sidekick.

[godisawesome]

well, look at the old Adam West Batman. Babs was more of an equal to Batman, and Robin was... Batman's teen sidekick.

Yeah; and when the comic version of Babs showed up, she wasn’t threatening to steal Batman’s sidekick’s heart, she was threatening to steal Batman’s sidekick. She was also a Congresswoman for a while, putting her in her later 20’s, not that far behind Bruce at all.

…Then came the 90’s, where Timm and others contributed to making audiences think of her as a much younger character, and where her and Dick were set up as a fairly organic and intuitive pairing, so much so the comics dragged Babs even before the New 52, making her only a couple of years older than Dick at most, while Bruce was allowed to age up more and more.

Fact of the matter is that the 60’s show did it really determine that much about Babs at all, and thus isn’t really worth using as a basis for how Babs and Bruce should interact.

[MajorHoy]

Yeah; and when the comic version of Babs showed up, she wasn’t threatening to steal Batman’s sidekick’s heart, she was threatening to steal Batman’s sidekick...

If you're talking about this cover:

that's not really what happened.
spoilers:

It was a temporary thing Babs and Dick pulled because Bruce was going to be out of action for a little while due to an illness.

end of spoilers

[godisawesome]

If you're talking about this cover:

that's not really what happened.
spoilers:

It was a temporary thing Babs and Dick pulled because Bruce was going to be out of action for a little while due to an illness.

end of spoilers

Actually, I was thinking of some other one I vaguely remember where Batgirl’s on a bike and Batman’s in the Batmobile, both appealing to Robin to join them.

And I don't think that was ever an actual plot of a comic - that was still the “just put some confusing shit on a cover, write the story next” era of the comics… but I still think it says something about that era that Batgirl was presented on the covers as more “girl Batman” than “girl Robin.”

[MajorHoy]

Actually, I was thinking of some other one I vaguely remember where Batgirl’s on a bike and Batman’s in the Batmobile, both appealing to Robin to join them.

The first page for that issue whose cover I posted:

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, like I said earlier, the problem with Bruce/Babs is the horrifyingly disgusting way that it’s treated by guys like Timm, in particular because guys like Timm helped make the modern idea of Babs’s first years in Gotham, and thus helped to de-age Babs, make her Dick’s peer, and make her one of Bruce’s protégés - and thus set it up where the relationship kind of couldn’t escape unfortunate implications and problematic power dynamics… and that’s before Timm sort of revealed that he and his buddies like those same problematic elements.

It’s sort of a situation where it wasn’t that problematic in the initial portrayal from the comics, and now it sort of “has” to be.

There really is a direct line between Timm writing in a gross pseudo love triangle between Dick, Babs and Bruce, and now the recurring tendency across media for her to be paired up with Dick, Bruce, Jason or Tim (and probably Damian eventually) as it suits the authors.

I guess we could say de-aging her and making her Dick's love interest to begin with maybe got the ball rolling. But the execution of that still respected Barbara as an independent vigilante with her own motivations to become Batgirl. Again, having a woman write the episodes that established Batgirl, her motivations and her burgeoning romance with Dick probably helped with the execution and gave the dynamic she and Dick have as peers more staying power than it otherwise would have.

[marhawkman]

There really is a direct line between Timm writing in a gross pseudo love triangle between Dick, Babs and Bruce, and now the recurring tendency across media for her to be paired up with Dick, Bruce, Jason or Tim (and probably Damian eventually) as it suits the authors.

I guess we could say de-aging her and making her Dick's love interest to begin with maybe got the ball rolling. But the execution of that still respected Barbara as an independent vigilante with her own motivations to become Batgirl. Again, having a woman write the episodes that established Batgirl, her motivations and her burgeoning romance with Dick probably helped with the execution and gave the dynamic she and Dick have as peers more staying power than it otherwise would have.

I would say de-aging her was the problem from the get-go and the rest was collateral damage.

[Godlike13]

De-aging her was fine. She doesn't have to bang Batman.

[MajorHoy]

I would say de-aging her was the problem from the get-go and the rest was collateral damage.

De-aging her for the animated series was one thing.

Then going back and de-aging her for the comic books afterwords was more of a problem.

[hareluyafan1]

On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague?

Thankfully no. In fact right after Tim is (seemingly) cured of the Ebola-Gulf A virus there's a scene where he talks to Ariana Dzerchenko on the phone to reassure her that he's okay. We see that Ariana and her family are perfectly fine. It's a really sweet moment.

[Tzigone]

Thankfully no. In fact right after Tim is (seemingly) cured of the Ebola-Gulf A virus there's a scene where he talks to Ariana Dzerchenko on the phone to reassure her that he's okay. We see that Ariana and her family are perfectly fine. It's a really sweet moment.

His friends still appeared some until Tim was made to go to private school by his father (I understand Jack's reasoning, given Tim's sneaking out, being dangerous places, disappearing for days, and either giving no explanation or lying about it). I recall a good-bye get-together between Tim and his buddies. I liked those buddies better than the private-school buddies. I remember when Tim decided to break up with Ariana. He was going to do so by letter, but Alfred told him that was cowardly and he should do so in person. But then Ariana broke up with him first.

FTR, I don't Babs de-aged into Bruce's protege, and I don't like her sleeping with him either.