Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Assam]

For me Cass is pretty boring. And it's not like I dislike certain type of characters (like some people always bash boy-scouts, then other think anti-heroes lame, etc.), I used to click with her type of heroes, but in the past two years I read like maniac almost all Batfamily related comics and there was no story that made me care about her. I guess she is just not for me.

The sad truth about Cass is that outside No Man's Land, nearly all of Cass's well written appearances are confined to her original solo book. Most writers just don't get her, or understand how to write her unique voice. Its possible that its not that she isn't for you, but that you haven't met the real Cass.

You see, we probably search for different things in our favorites, because I care about Bruce and Dick more than about anyone in Batfamily. But me thinking that Cass adds nothing to the family, still just opinion. It's not meant to be objective or subjective. For me take her down from Batfamily and nothing would change; for her fans of course it would be a different story.

My bad, I misunderstood what you meant. Yeah, I'm sure we all have Batfamily members we wouldn't care if they disappeared.

What I thought you meant was that she didn't contribute anything to the mythos as a whole. With the exception of Snyder's pets, I'd argue that every Batfamily member has themes surrounding them that enrich the mythos.

[RebirthgotmebackintoDC]

I don't hate Duke. Or Bluebird. I don't think they have a role yet, but I think that's the point of them right now. I guess the controversial opinion would be that I don't want any of them to have field roles. I always appreciated when creators of whatever medium show examples of people being heroes or helpful without having to punch or beat things in some way. That's why Barbara as Oracle will always be better to me than Barbara as Batgirl (although I like her too).

[Assam]

I don't hate Duke. Or Bluebird. I don't think they have a role yet, but I think that's the point of them right now. I guess the controversial opinion would be that I don't want any of them to have field roles. I always appreciated when creators of whatever medium show examples of people being heroes or helpful without having to punch or beat things in some way. That's why Barbara as Oracle will always be better to me than Barbara as Batgirl (although I like her too).

I don't hate them either. At worst, I'm indifferent to Duke, and simply frustrated by Snyder's attitude with the character, and with Harper, I actually like her more than a good chunk of the Batfamily. (She's not in my top ten, but she's not in my bottom 10 either)

Duke definitely isn't staying out of the field once Dark Days comes around, and while Harper is currently retired, Snyder hinted in a podcast that she's going to be on a team book that isn't 'Tec next year (I'm hoping the team consists of her, Cass, Steph, and Clayface)

[RebirthgotmebackintoDC]

I don't hate them either. At worst, I'm indifferent to Duke, and simply frustrated by Snyder's attitude with the character, and with Harper, I actually like her more than a good chunk of the Batfamily. (She's not in my top ten, but she's not in my bottom 10 either)

Duke definitely isn't staying out of the field once Dark Days comes around, and while Harper is currently retired, Snyder hinted in a podcast that she's going to be on a team book that isn't 'Tec next year (I'm hoping the team consists of her, Cass, Steph, and Clayface)

Oh I didn't know that. That would be really interesting. Maybe it would happen with the return of Tim. Tynion has said that only he knows when Tim comes back, and that he has Detective mapped out until 975, which means, I'm just assuming here, Tim has to come back soon.

[Atlanta96]

I believe that mediocre characters like Duke are actually the worst characters ever. Because at least when a character is truly awful then the majority of the fandom will rally against them and they'll go away. But with a mediocre block of wood like Duke there's an epidemic of "give him a chance" attitudes that keep him around longer than he needs to.

If you're a perfectionist like me you'll find these characters infuriating. If you're a more casual reader you probably don't think much of them at all.

[Jokerz79]

I have nothing against Duke no love or hate if he stays fine if he goes also fine. I think him as any type of Robin is pointless Bruce has enough of those. I think a more interesting root for Duke instead of Batman grooming another vigilante would had been Bruce grooming a young man for Wayne and being his eyes and ears for the day Lucius retires. The focus on that aspect of Bruce's life would had been different and interesting to me and seeing Bruce as a mentor but not teaching a kid how to be a vigilante would also be interesting to me.

[RedQueen]

Ok I was just thinking, I preferred the smaller Batfam of the New 52: Bruce, Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim and Damian. Not for the characters themselves as such but to me that is the perfect amount of Batfamily. It also had the essential members who had the appropriate history to be in Bruce's inner circle and still keep the well known stories. While I absolutely adore characters like Cass, this is not me excluding her importance, but these are characters who have the iconography because DC had been very dismissive of Cass by the time Damian established himself as a core character. It's not so much characters I prefer, but characters you can tell DC can easily prioritize.

I like Steph as a character, but Stephanie never felt like a core character in the Batfam. I didn't like the idea of her time as Batgirl because it meant she shafted Cass out of her mantel and Cass wasn't seen for ages. I also highly doubt Barbara would endorse a new Batgirl, especially when her daughter figure was MIA. The story telling was cute but I didn't enjoy what it meant for Cass and her absence. And every time someone's like Steph should be the next Batgirl after Babs, it's like no honey.

[Assam]

Ok I was just thinking, I preferred the smaller Batfam of the New 52: Bruce, Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim and Damian. Not for the characters themselves as such but to me that is the perfect amount of Batfamily. It also had the essential members who had the appropriate history to be in Bruce's inner circle and still keep the well known stories. While I absolutely adore characters like Cass, this is not me excluding her importance, but these are characters who have the iconography because DC had been very dismissive of Cass by the time Damian established himself as a core character. It's not so much characters I prefer, but characters you can tell DC can easily prioritize.

I like Steph as a character, but Stephanie never felt like a core character in the Batfam. I didn't like the idea of her time as Batgirl because it meant she shafted Cass out of her mantel and Cass wasn't seen for ages. I also highly doubt Barbara would endorse a new Batgirl, especially when her daughter figure was MIA. The story telling was cute but I didn't enjoy what it meant for Cass and her absence. And every time someone's like Steph should be the next Batgirl after Babs, it's like no honey.

I personally really like a BIG Batfamily, but I do think the core group should be kept under 10 at any given time. I didn't care for the NuBatfamily, or any of their books. I'm not a fan of Bruce and Dick, to this day I boycott Babsgirl books, not out of my love for Cass and Steph, but for respect to Oracle, Jason I wasn't a fan of at the time, and have only become on in Rebirth, I had no interest in seeing Damian with Bruce and not Dick...and there was NuTim. I don't need to explain NuTim.

So yeah, as a life-long Batfamily fan, like in most areas, the Nu52 was a rough time.

When Steph's Batgirl book first came out, yeah, I was pissed because I was hoping for another Cass ongoing. Still, I was and still am a Steph fan, AND she was Cass's best friend. I'd be doing nobody a favor by rejecting the book outright, and low and behold, it was a really damn good book.

As far as Babs endorsing her was concerned, she didn't at first, though not for the reason you brought up, and I've always thought the explanation was obvious: She's Oracle. She knows everything going on in the world at any given time, so while the reader didn't know, and Steph didn't know, Babs probably knew that Cass was acting as the Batman of Hong Kong (Which, while an incredibly seemingly racist move since Cass has very little if any connection to her heritage, DID mean that she was in charge of defending a much larger and more prominent territory than Gotham

Babs is Batgirl now, much as I hate that that's a fact, and even if there's a massive editorial and executive shake-up, the chances of ANYONE else becoming Batgirl again is slim.

But that's okay.

I miss Oracle, and I wish Cass could have her old Batgirl suit, and the fact that on paper we'll likely never see the Babs Cass mother-daughter relationship again stings (If they try giving Kate that role, my fury will not be containable)...but at this point, if they give me a well-written and drawn Cass solo book, and I will be able to ignore EVERYTHING else that's wrong.

[Clark_Kent]

Controversial opinions, eh? Boy, do I have a few lol

• Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better.

• Having said that, Stephanie Brown should have stayed dead. Dead dead dead. Deader than disco. Deader than a doornail. She's a terrible character.

• Cass is...ok? I guess? I stopped being interested around the Murderer/Fugitive time period. A character that can do everything perfectly all the time is boring. And yes, this also applies to Bruce quite often.

• Batman's Rebirth costume is ugly. If you're going to put yellow on the chest, bring back the oval.

• Jason should never have been brought back permanently. I love UtH, but I wish there had been a way for Bruce to experience Jason's post-return feelings about the Joker being alive, but not actually have Jason be alive. If that makes sense.

• If Jason has to be alive, he should be a villain & not part of the batfamily.

[RebirthgotmebackintoDC]

I personally really like a BIG Batfamily, but I do think the core group should be kept under 10 at any given time. I didn't care for the NuBatfamily, or any of their books. I'm not a fan of Bruce and Dick, to this day I boycott Babsgirl books, not out of my love for Cass and Steph, but for respect to Oracle, Jason I wasn't a fan of at the time, and have only become on in Rebirth, I had no interest in seeing Damian with Bruce and not Dick...and there was NuTim. I don't need to explain NuTim.

So yeah, as a life-long Batfamily fan, like in most areas, the Nu52 was a rough time.

When Steph's Batgirl book first came out, yeah, I was pissed because I was hoping for another Cass ongoing. Still, I was and still am a Steph fan, AND she was Cass's best friend. I'd be doing nobody a favor by rejecting the book outright, and low and behold, it was a really damn good book.

As far as Babs endorsing her was concerned, she didn't at first, though not for the reason you brought up, and I've always thought the explanation was obvious: She's Oracle. She knows everything going on in the world at any given time, so while the reader didn't know, and Steph didn't know, Babs probably knew that Cass was acting as the Batman of Hong Kong (Which, while an incredibly seemingly racist move since Cass has very little if any connection to her heritage, DID mean that she was in charge of defending a much larger and more prominent territory than Gotham

Babs is Batgirl now, much as I hate that that's a fact, and even if there's a massive editorial and executive shake-up, the chances of ANYONE else becoming Batgirl again is slim.

But that's okay.

I miss Oracle, and I wish Cass could have her old Batgirl suit, and the fact that on paper we'll likely never see the Babs Cass mother-daughter relationship again stings (If they try giving Kate that role, my fury will not be containable)...but at this point, if they give me a well-written and drawn Cass solo book, and I will be able to ignore EVERYTHING else that's wrong.

I agree that Cass won't be batgirl again, BUT I think she'll be changing her name from Orphan at the end of this story. Maybe back to Blackbat? the way I see it is she'll realizes she has a family with the team and the name Orphan won't apply anymore. Also, I have to say, it does KIND of look like Kate and Bruce are set to me a, if not mentor, guiding influence on her, at least that's what is seems to be building towards to me.

[RebirthgotmebackintoDC]

Controversial opinions, eh? Boy, do I have a few lol

• Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better.

• Having said that, Stephanie Brown should have stayed dead. Dead dead dead. Deader than disco. Deader than a doornail. She's a terrible character.

• Cass is...ok? I guess? I stopped being interested around the Murderer/Fugitive time period. A character that can do everything perfectly all the time is boring. And yes, this also applies to Bruce quite often.

• Batman's Rebirth costume is ugly. If you're going to put yellow on the chest, bring back the oval.

• Jason should never have been brought back permanently. I love UtH, but I wish there had been a way for Bruce to experience Jason's post-return feelings about the Joker being alive, but not actually have Jason be alive. If that makes sense.

• If Jason has to be alive, he should be a villain & not part of the batfamily.

I kind of agree with the Jason point. But not a straight up villain more like a Wolverine/Punisher type hero. In general, although I'm mainly a DC guy, the one thing Marvel has over DC with its heroes is that they don't always find the perfect solution that saves everyone. They sometimes have to compromise their ideals, and when they don't sometimes people suffer for it. Jason could be the "do what needs to be done" person in DC. Not saying they should kill everyone, or even anyone, but having Jason in that role opens up the conversation that just isn't there now. For example, the first (i think) spiderman wolverine team up was all about this and I thought it was fantastic.

[Assam]

I agree that Cass won't be batgirl again, BUT I think she'll be changing her name from Orphan at the end of this story. Maybe back to Blackbat? the way I see it is she'll realizes she has a family with the team and the name Orphan won't apply anymore. Also, I have to say, it does KIND of look like Kate and Bruce are set to me a, if not mentor, guiding influence on her, at least that's what is seems to be building towards to me.

Yeah, ever since the explanation of the name in #950, I've been expecting the name change at the end of the arc. Honestly, ANYTHING will be a better name for brand purposes than Orphan, and since pretty much any fan of her's just calls her Cass anyway, the branding is what really matters in this case. And I'm HOPING that the reason we haven't seen the covers for #956-#958 is partially because one of them has a new costume for her on it.

I want adorkable Batdad yesterday. His protectiveness of Cass in her solo was glorious. Kate, I'm fine with acting as sort of a cool aunt, as Millernumber1 proposed, but Cass's view of Babs as a mother was very clear, and I don't want them to try to re-create that dynamic with Kate.

[Assam]

Controversial opinions, eh? Boy, do I have a few lol

• Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better.

• Having said that, Stephanie Brown should have stayed dead. Dead dead dead. Deader than disco. Deader than a doornail. She's a terrible character.

• Cass is...ok? I guess? I stopped being interested around the Murderer/Fugitive time period. A character that can do everything perfectly all the time is boring. And yes, this also applies to Bruce quite often.

• Batman's Rebirth costume is ugly. If you're going to put yellow on the chest, bring back the oval.

• Jason should never have been brought back permanently. I love UtH, but I wish there had been a way for Bruce to experience Jason's post-return feelings about the Joker being alive, but not actually have Jason be alive. If that makes sense.

• If Jason has to be alive, he should be a villain & not part of the batfamily.

I've considered Wargames's quality before, doing my best to ignore what it did to Steph and Leslie, and honestly, its mostly pretty mediocre. There's nothing great about it at all, and what it DID do to those characters brings it into garbage territory.

You're entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong. I kid, but think about it this way. To this day, Steph fans blame Bruce for what happened to her, myself included, and while losing a few thousand fans isn't much to Batman, as time went on, and more characters were mistreated, there's no telling what could have happened.

The fact that you think Cass "Can do everything perfectly all the time", makes me think you don't actually know anything about the character.

Eh. I think the suit is decent. Not the best.

Surprisingly, I agree here. These days Jason may be my 3rd favorite Robin, but bringing him back and destroying the effect his death had on the franchise wasn't worth it.

Disagree.

[Carabas]

• Wargames is a good bat-event, and would be viewed more favorably with people if Steph hadn't been taken out like she was & Leslie had been treated better.

I don't think that bad stories becoming less bad if you take out the most of the bad stuff is particularily controversial.

[Clark_Kent]

I've considered Wargames's quality before, doing my best to ignore what it did to Steph and Leslie, and honestly, its mostly pretty mediocre. There's nothing great about it at all, and what it DID do to those characters brings it into garbage territory.

That's why I said "good bat-event", and not "great".

You're entitled to that opinion, but you're wrong. I kid, but think about it this way. To this day, Steph fans blame Bruce for what happened to her, myself included, and while losing a few thousand fans isn't much to Batman, as time went on, and more characters were mistreated, there's no telling what could have happened.

The fact that you think Cass "Can do everything perfectly all the time", makes me think you don't actually know anything about the character.

I admit to never reading her solo series, but between the time she appeared during NML and when I lost interest in her, she was portrayed as practically unbeatable hand to hand because she "reads her opponent so well", and in the Murderer arc she was shown moving around Wayne Manor freely, in costume, amongst all of the detectives and police there, because she moved so swiftly and silently that nobody even heard she was there. I can get behind these characters suddenly appearing or disappearing from a room, I mean that's a Batman staple; but, for me, what they portrayed Cass as was too much.

Ultimately, you're right - I don't know that much about her. And I'm okay with that :P

Eh. I think the suit is decent. Not the best.

Surprisingly, I agree here. These days Jason may be my 3rd favorite Robin, but bringing him back and destroying the effect his death had on the franchise wasn't worth it.

Disagree.

A few responses in bold to help clear up my thoughts.

My favorite period for the batfam was during No Mans Land. Nightwing, Robin, Huntress, Oracle, Azrael, Batgirl (I liked Cass in NML! Really!).