Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Aioros22]

That Jason can be trusted to deal with killing better then the villains or Batman emotionally does not give him the right to take away people's lives. It's not about what it does to Jason, it's about what it does to his victims. And no. Starfire could have just grabbed Roy and Jason and flown up, instead of straight through the enemy lines. No ****s were given. Which is fine for a book titled "Outlaws", but Batman who does respect the law should not be on board with their methods, regardless of whether he "gets it".

I don`t recall all she required was flying up and be done with it but regardless of it why are you picking an example where Law is exactly sketchy? Law and space conflit = whose law?

Batman who respects mostly the Law reconliced with Diana after she snapped Lord`s neck. I don`t believe she ever lost sleep over it either.

[Aioros22]

Irrelevant to my point. That Damian and Jason have daddy issues does not make them any less killers which is what I was responding to. Helena has spared people too without needing Bruce and unlike Jason didn't target civilians just to piss him off.

And I haven't even mentioned Bruce turning a blind eye to Selina and Talia's kills.

You two need to kiss and make up, none of the points are wrong.

Batman makes his own cavetae with Law and working with outlaws or heroes who do the necessary evil. Check.

But he does it only for a select few because they offer something that most necessary evils or outright evils won`t or can`t. Double Check.

If you want to say he has a bias that`s only bloody natural. Everybody does but he`s not sanctioning sweet Jason because of dead son issues, he`s sanctioning Jason because he`s done enough to prove to him he is someone they can work with. Red Hood may not lose sleep over slavers, pedophiles and such but he`s not a walking machine without feelings, regrets or the ability to grow and listen.

[DurararaFTW]

I don`t recall all she required was flying up and be done with it but regardless of it why are you picking an example where Law is exactly sketchy? Law and space conflit = whose law?

Batman who respects mostly the Law reconliced with Diana after she snapped Lord`s neck. I don`t believe she ever lost sleep over it either.

They broke up the Justice League because of stuff like that and when they reformed, Diana wasn't still snapping the necks the villains they encounter. Bruce reconciling with and forgiving his teammates for their past mistakes (regardless of whether Diana views them as such) is one thing, but condoning and actively enabling killing while it is still happening, like with Jason, is a completely different story.

[Aioros22]

They broke up the Justice League because of stuff like that and when they reformed, Diana wasn't still snapping the necks the villains they encounter. Bruce reconciling with and forgiving his teammates for their past mistakes (regardless of whether Diana views them as such) is one thing, but condoning and actively enabling killing while it is still happening, like with Jason, is a completely different story.

Is it? Rebirth starts with Batman keeping an eye on Jason about Black Mask. He wanted to bring him down when it seemed he had gone rogue again after the Mayor`s assault.

You keep acting like Batman just lets Jason do whatever he feels like, and that, at the very least in Gotham is false. You also brought the point of victims. Who vouches for Jason`s victims? Well, his targets (if it gets there) are usually unsympathetic to any sane audiences. It`s hard to feel compassion for the likes of Joker, rapists or the ilk. If you bring the noton of law and state then who vouches for Joker`s victims? State won`t take matters in hand because in the eyes of Law he`s a cuckoo. In the few instances he looked rational he`s ever flat out rejected any semblance of redemption or truce from Bruce. From wanting to kill him. From wanting to hurt whoever.

Who vouches for them everytime he flies out the cukoo nest?

Batman?

Readers wanted to embrace realism and now they have it. This is why Jason works. The whole law and victims argument runs both ways, even for Batman. The difference between Jason and some others is that he`s proven he can help and he`s willing to listen and understand/compromise given the situation, especially because, he sees the difference between some and others. Hence why the no kill shots in missions with the others in Gotham (Batman&Robin/Eternal) and hence why despite still making sure Black Mask didn`t come out smiling, he didn`t kill him.

Back to Wonder Woman, curiously enough, she has also decapited enemies of her. She didn`t show any remorse for either act. How do you reconcilie that with working together with Batman?

[Carabas]

They broke up the Justice League because of stuff like that and when they reformed, Diana wasn't still snapping the necks the villains they encounter. Bruce reconciling with and forgiving his teammates for their past mistakes (regardless of whether Diana views them as such) is one thing, but condoning and actively enabling killing while it is still happening, like with Jason, is a completely different story.

Of course, snapping Lord's neck was not a mistake, but the only possible course of action.
And the JLA broke up over not killing villains, but mindwiping them, and any JLAer who disagreed.

[DurararaFTW]

Is it? Rebirth starts with Batman keeping an eye on Jason about Black Mask. He wanted to bring him down when it seemed he had gone rogue again after the Mayor`s assault.

Superman was told to back off from dealing the Outlaws in general by Batman.

You keep acting like Batman just lets Jason do whatever he feels like, and that, at the very least in Gotham is false. You also brought the point of victims. Who vouches for Jason`s victims? Well, his targets (if it gets there) are usually unsympathetic to any sane audiences. It`s hard to feel compassion for the likes of Joker, rapists or the ilk. If you bring the noton of law and state then who vouches for Joker`s victims? State won`t take matters in hand because in the eyes of Law he`s a cuckoo. In the few instances he looked rational he`s ever flat out rejected any semblance of redemption or truce from Bruce. From wanting to kill him. From wanting to hurt whoever.

Who vouches for them everytime he flies out the cukoo nest?

Batman?

If Jason only targeted the Joker, and those with the same bodycount accompanied with an as obvious an insanity plea as the Joker (even among Gotham's rogue gallkery that list would be very slim) it'd be a different story. But it isn't. Jason doesn't go after the Joker or his ilk. Guns down mooks who for all he knows are in the same tough place he was before Bruce picked him up or after the Joker got to him.

Readers wanted to embrace realism and now they have it. This is why Jason works. The whole law and victims argument runs both ways, even for Batman. The difference between Jason and some others is that he`s proven he can help and he`s willing to listen and understand/compromise given the situation, especially because, he sees the difference between some and others. Hence why the no kill shots in missions with the others in Gotham (Batman&Robin/Eternal) and hence why despite still making sure Black Mask didn`t come out smiling, he didn`t kill him.

Please don't use "realism" and "no kills shots" in the same argument. I really don't know how to take that mixed message. Jason relies on bullets to stop his enemies because them dying as a result is not big deal for him. That remains the case. Doesn't mean it always happens but he's okay with it. Even in Gotham.

Back to Wonder Woman, curiously enough, she has also decapited enemies of her. She didn`t show any remorse for either act. How do you reconcilie that with working together with Batman?

I don't, I have a big problem with Batman choosing to work alongside a version of Wonder Woman that is that much of an utterly needless psycho. But Wonder Woman forged her own way unto the Justice League. Red Hood is protected from being stopped by other superheroes because of Batman. And I don't see Bruce bringing WW too Gotham to deal with his crossover event, bringingall her swords and torture apparatus with her.

[Vegan Daddy]

Batman comics are dull without the homoerotic, half-naked orphan boys.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[darkseidpwns]

And Helena was raised by the mafia. Your point? They still killed. Jason still kills. Popularity's got nothing to do with it. Don't know why you keep going to that well for deflecting when it is never brought up. I could give less of a crap how popular Jason or Damian is

You and I both know that his treatment of Talia or Selina had nothing to do with reformation. When those Bane commits a crime Bruce still takes him down

Which she didn't believe in, she just used them for her own bloodlust. What part of wanting to be better did you fail to catch?

It does, he wants to believe they can reform. He also takes down Selina and Talia when they commit crimes.

[yohyoi]

Jason should have stayed a villain. He is suppose to be Batman's greatest failure. As a villain he was both relatable and the great tragedy of Bruce's war on crime, that he can't save all the people he cares about. Making Jason into a hero reduces the impact of his death and resurrection. Right now he feels out of place in the Bat family. Why would Batman allow a killer in the Bat family? Batman has put people in jail for less. It doesn't make sense. Jason just feels like a generic edgy bad boy of the Bat family. Tumblr loves Jason, but they also love a lot of things I don't care about. Ehhh... I don't really care, just putting it out since Jason's thread is full of fan art from Tumblr.

[yohyoi]

If Jason only targeted the Joker, and those with the same bodycount accompanied with an as obvious an insanity plea as the Joker (even among Gotham's rogue gallkery that list would be very slim) it'd be a different story. But it isn't. Jason doesn't go after the Joker or his ilk. Guns down mooks who for all he knows are in the same tough place he was before Bruce picked him up or after the Joker got to him.

I wish this happens. It would make sense for Jason to keep on hunting the Joker with his dying breath. Why the hell is he shooting generic thugs when the Joker is running loose? He should use all that angst and anger trying to kill the Joker like in the Under The Red Hood. It makes it look like Jason has either amnesia or he is scared of the Joker.

[Aioros22]

Superman was told to back off from dealing the Outlaws in general by Batman.

During the time in the book where the Outlaws were shown helping Leaguers and allies in more than one occassion. And again more due to Jason`s rep. This is clear right away in the first lines of dialogue of Superman to Jason where he mentions he remembers him from years ago when Robin saved him but..rep.

If Jason only targeted the Joker, and those with the same bodycount accompanied with an as obvious an insanity plea as the Joker (even among Gotham's rogue gallkery that list would be very slim) it'd be a different story. But it isn't. Jason doesn't go after the Joker or his ilk. Guns down mooks who for all he knows are in the same tough place he was before Bruce picked him up or after the Joker got to him.

Make me a list of people in RATHO that he gun down that weren`t: "His ilk", mystical threats, space slavers, assassins, mercenaries, etc.

He does go after the Joker and the only reason he hasn`t suceed is Batman. This of course, is taking in consideration he does know the difference between a Joker and a Penguin and that insanity on itself doesn`t excuse it. On the other hand, he tried to reform Joker`s Daugther..

Please don't use "realism" and "no kills shots" in the same argument. I really don't know how to take that mixed message. Jason relies on bullets to stop his enemies because them dying as a result is not big deal for him. That remains the case. Doesn't mean it always happens but he's okay with it. Even in Gotham.

There`s no mixed message. An Anti-Hero is defined by how he views Justice and the use of lethal force. That`s the broad definition and there`s plenty of examples where he doesn`t go for the kill shot. Eternal is one such book where you can see this happening. He went plenty for wound shots only on whatever mooks until for example he encounters a factory of working children where he had clear intention of gunning slavers down.

Again there`s people he doesn`t lose sleep over. That`s nothing new. But this isn`t the reason he gets a level of trust, of which I already laid it out. After all, an anti hero will not have the shinning gleaming qualities of the conventional archetype but he requires to have heroic qualities to shoulder the bigger tragedy of character. Just so, why he gave JD the chance and after it backfires and taking down the Iron Rule he breakes away from Roy. This is development of character tragedy. Hence why at the start of Rebirth Batman keeps an eye on him again, because he fears Jason might go down the old path but he doesn`t.

And that is why Batman gives him a lease of trust.

Lease. Not card blanche. Don`t make the statement that isn`t there.

[Aioros22]

To be more precise, he has gone after the Joker but Joker happens to be more protected by Batman than any card blanche you could picture and Jason has tried to stay away from Gotham and that. But things have a way to keep grabbing you.

[DurararaFTW]

During the time in the book where the Outlaws were shown helping Leaguers and allies in more than one occassion. And again more due to Jason`s rep. This is clear right away in the first lines of dialogue of Superman to Jason where he mentions he remembers him from years ago when Robin saved him but..rep.

In the five year timeline, the first year was Dick Grayson being Robin, the next two was Jason's time as Robin. Then he died, then he trained with the League for year and then csme back insane. It's referenced in the first issue that he still tried to kill Divk several times, Tim makes mention that Jason still did terrible things to him. And we see that in the new version of Under the Hood, Jason does not stop short from killing Batman himself, Nightwing intervenes when Jason is looking batman down from a gunbarrel. Now forgiveness and understanding afterwards is one thing, but what wide spread reputation as reliable and unerring agent of justice do you imagine Jason built up already in that pretty short timespawn?

Make me a list of people in RATHO that he gun down that weren`t: "His ilk", mystical threats, space slavers, assassins, mercenaries, etc.

mercenaries, assassins, random mooks, gangbosses that sort of thing. Bad people, but they are NOT Jokers. They don't have his bodycount by long shot nor his record of escaping justice through Arkham Asylum after arrest time and again, like the Joker.

There`s no mixed message. An Anti-Hero is defined by how he views Justice and the use of lethal force. That`s the broad definition and there`s plenty of examples where he doesn`t go for the kill shot. Eternal is one such book where you can see this happening. He went plenty for wound shots only on whatever mooks until for example he encounters a factory of working children where he had clear intention of gunning slavers down.

Putting bullets in people and leaving them on the battlefield regardless of whether you shot them in the heart or brain can still result in their death. It's a constant probability that Jason accepts with all of his enemies and one he chooses to seek out despite being more then trained to do without the use of a gun. Jason IS a more realistic character for choosing firearms, yes. That goes out of the window again when you pretend guns aren't actually dangerous even when you point them at people and pull the trigger.

Again there`s people he doesn`t lose sleep over. That`s nothing new. But this isn`t the reason he gets a level of trust, of which I already laid it out. After all, an anti hero will not have the shinning gleaming qualities of the conventional archetype but he requires to have heroic qualities to shoulder the bigger tragedy of character. Just so, why he gave JD the chance and after it backfires and taking down the Iron Rule he breakes away from Roy. This is development of character tragedy. Hence why at the start of Rebirth Batman keeps an eye on him again, because he fears Jason might go down the old path but he doesn`t.

And that is why Batman gives him a lease of trust.

Lease. Not card blanche. Don`t make the statement that isn`t there.

Yeah, there's people Jason doesn't lose sleep over killing, that's nothing new. And it does not have to be a case where there's documentation that no rehabilitation is possible or that no prison sentence will be dealt out by the law like Joker. Jason makes his own justice even with the smaller criminals. And Batman does not define that as being on the old path already. That Jason has to do more then kill criminals when he doesn't really need to to get Batman's attention is a problem for me.

[Aioros22]

In the five year timeline, the first year was Dick Grayson being Robin, the next two was Jason's time as Robin. Then he died, then he trained with the League for year and then csme back insane. It's referenced in the first issue that he still tried to kill Divk several times, Tim makes mention that Jason still did terrible things to him. And we see that in the new version of Under the Hood, Jason does not stop short from killing Batman himself, Nightwing intervenes when Jason is looking batman down from a gunbarrel. Now forgiveness and understanding afterwards is one thing, but what wide spread reputation as reliable and unerring agent of justice do you imagine Jason built up already in that pretty short timespawn?

The five year timeline was supposed to compromisse alot of narratives that they didn`t want to let go of and is the reason it`s been dropped and expanded again. But I`m not saying his good reputation was widespread, I`m merely pointing out that by the time Superman comes in we`re already past his most violent arc as a character. It`s clear its those that are pointed out by Superman for coming for them but I don`t think anybody is saying how Superman was off base. He only recalls Jason as a young pup and now knows he`s done criminal things.

But the reason Batman does it is because Jason started a walking rogue but grew to be more. Batman didn`t give him the lease during the events of UTRH - which is where he is at his most violent, he gave it afterwards in a title that literally starts with Jason stating that "Batman" and "Joker" deserve each other and wants nothing from Gotham anymore. Obviously he gets pulled back on ocassion but that feeling alone already shows a distance from where he was some time ago. Jason isn`t exactly nice to kal which I disliked but as he tells him he`s a work in progress. It also shows that the same vouch from Batman comes from knowing about the good things the Outlaws have been doing, whether it`s widespread or not.

Lodbell could have done more with bridging that up, yes. We have Tim telling Jason at the rooftop: "Yeah, you died and came back and your killer was out and that`s too much to emotionally compress so I get why you went hard on it", even here we see Jason takes upon him the consequences. He tells Tim he wasn`t "nice to him before", which implies they fought and that`s part the reason he also kept distance from them. So, what you have is someone who is aware and repents himself over what he does. This is also essential in getting why they give him the chance. Someone like Deathstroke would never do that.

mercenaries, assassins, random mooks, gangbosses that sort of thing. Bad people, but they are NOT Jokers. They don't have his bodycount by long shot nor his record of escaping justice through Arkham Asylum after arrest time and again, like the Joker.

How do you know they don`t have a similar bodycount? They aren`t media friendly as the Joker and the vast majority wouldn`t go to AA anyhow. The Untitled agent that awoke, alone, killed the whole of the All Caste to start with and then civilians. The mission with Batman and the Superman family against Warworld had Earth in peril and the mission with Superman and Grayson was to shut down someone with clearly a bigger bodycount.

Which random mooks are you thinking that aren`t part of those mercenary/space slavers/walking dead guilds?

Putting bullets in people and leaving them on the battlefield regardless of whether you shot them in the heart or brain can still result in their death. It's a constant probability that Jason accepts with all of his enemies and one he chooses to seek out despite being more then trained to do without the use of a gun. Jason IS a more realistic character for choosing firearms, yes. That goes out of the window again when you pretend guns aren't actually dangerous even when you point them at people and pull the trigger.

There`s nothing unrealistic about wound shots that don`t instantly kill you. I see no reason to mention how the probablity of dying of the same is real if not assisted when the point of doing is for exactly that same possibility to occur. In this genre of fiction, most people in that line of work have basic knowledge to stop wounds for getting worse before professional medical assistance or flat out have gear/abilities/armor that stops from making it fatal. True to the superhero world, most of the enemies he engages in do have those.

[Aahz]

In the five year timeline, the first year was Dick Grayson being Robin, the next two was Jason's time as Robin. Then he died, then he trained with the League for year and then csme back insane. It's referenced in the first issue that he still tried to kill Divk several times, Tim makes mention that Jason still did terrible things to him.

In the five year timeline Dick imo Robin for 2 years and it is said that Jason was only Robin for few month.
And the first issues after flashpoint are in all cases a little bit problematic since the writers didn't really know at this point what was continuity and what wasn't, there were for example rreffernces to Dicks Titans in RHatO and TT, and only later it became canon that Tims Titans were the first.