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  1. #1441
    Harper Row fan Westbats's Avatar
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    Hmm, opinions that come to mind are

    Purely hypothetical, but if a storyline had Barbara stop being Batgirl, I'd be okay with Cassandra, Stephanie, or someone entirely new taking up the mantle. I do think there can be multiple Batgirls simultaneously.

    Harper Row wasn't a bad character, it's how she was handled. Much like how Geoff Johns keeps writers from using Shazam or the Justice Society, Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV kept writers from working with her, which I think is why Batman and Robin Eternal was so convoluted (among other things); it had to stuff entire storylines into a story that should have been about every Robin. I'd love for someone else to bring her back, eventually into a vigilante role.

    I enjoyed Tim Seeley writing Dick Grayson out of suit, and I like Shawn Tsang, she was interesting and a good foil (and romantic interest) to Dick.
    I'm currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, DCeased: Dead Planet, Dark Knights: Death Metal, Daredevil, Thor, Nightwing, The Rise of Ultraman and Red Hood and The Outlaws. I'm also trade-waiting the Hickman-era of X-Men comics.

  2. #1442
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There's controversial and then controversial here. Before I found this board, I'd have said '90s Tim (and Kon) or bronze-age Batman being better than later versions was controversial, but I'm not sure it is here.

    So:

    Steph was better as Spoiler than Batgirl. I liked her not backing down from heroing Batman's orders. As bad as she got treated by everyone, I don't find her getting accepted as Batgirl a victory. It's like the end of "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" - are you glad all the reindeer love him or would you rather he tell them to take a hike? I'm in the later character. I consider going from an independent hero to being Oracle's underling (and yes, I do think Oracle is frequently written as her boss) is a demotion. Liked her personality more before all the wisecracking, too.

    Barbara should not have been de-aged and made Batgirl again. Doesn't sound that controversial in my old circles (maybe here?), but she should have had her paralysis healed. I'm not sure if I've met anyone else who holds both ideas. It makes sense with the technology in the world (particularly Damian's healing - they could have tried to steal info on that process, at least), and it eases my frustration over the double standard where Bruce gets healed and Damian gets healed, but Barbara doesn't. There were of course, several other options they could have tried earlier, but didn't because...plot demands she not be healed.

    While Barbara was a good character as Oracle (as always, dependent on who's writing), the purpose was created for her to fill rather than her filling a needed purpose. Everyone did fine with gathering their own intel before she came along, and premise demanded they needed her. I liked her better running her own team than doing work for other groups (including JL) for this reason.

    Barbara's Batgirl origin was better pre-COIE, when she was not Batman's protege, but more independent. When he found out her identity at the same time she found out his. They were on much more equal footing then, and I preferred it. I do not like Bagirl: Year One at all.

    The setup for Death In the Family (searching for Jason's mom) is bad, and the bad continuity regarding his parents (dad's personality and mom's cause of death) annoys me.

    I kinda prefer Alfred meeting Bruce after Dick comes along. I think it's better for how Bruce turned out (at least in his later, unhealthier versions) and keeps the first Batfamily addition and Dick and means he didn't take in a kid expecting someone else to do all the hard work.

    I prefer Talia as a villain. Not as evil as sometimes made out, but definitely in line with her earlier bronze age appearances where she'd amnesia-drug someone, accede to the kidnapping of Bruce's ward, be fine with an unconscious kidnapped Batman being forcibly married to her, etc.

    Dick Grayson should be Bruce's best man if he ever marries when these two are in a good emotional place.

    Bruce shouldn't have been given a biological child. I wouldn't get rid of Damian now, but the division/difference between him and the others couldn't have been made plainer when N52 came and the others all lost their places as his kids, and Damian didn't.

    I liked Selina having a daughter that wasn't Bruce's, especially if they were to end up together (this is in retrospect, because I never read until after Damian was introduced). He has a whole passel of kids that aren't hers (including a bio one), and hers being adopted out or ceasing to exist makes it feel like a double-standard where he's allowed to have a child not his, but she isn't allowed to have one not his.

    Neither Cass nor Tim should have been adopted by Bruce. Tim worked better with his father and it helped to make "son" and "Robin" not interchangeable and dependent on each other. Cass was, it seems to me, made to spin-off character, not integrated in the family. Of course, the boys don't have all have deep bonds to each other, either, but that doesn't stop the fandom from acting like they do - something they do not extend to Cass. Which is a bit unfair.

    Alfred should be wrong more - I mean wrong in a way acknowledged by those other than Bruce. Sometimes - not always - he's written as a sort of all-wise figure that never screws up, and that's an issue with me.

    Moratorium on new members of Batfamily until Damian is grown. Some are only very distantly connected and end up dropped and forgotten. I understand the business reasons for tying them to the Bat symbol, but would rather new completely independent heroes be developed. Children too young to side-kick don't count here.

    Dick should never, ever move back to Gotham again. He needs to be out of Batman's shadow or TPTB won't let him shine, since everyone must be inferior to Batman.

    Lastly, the grand finale: I don't like Miller's Batman in general, and do not like Batman: Year One.

  3. #1443
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post

    The setup for Death In the Family (searching for Jason's mom) is bad
    I don't think there's anything controversial about this. It's really not that good of a story and the only reason it's worth mentioning these days is because it ended with Joker killing robin. Had it gone the other way (Robin lived) I honestly don't think it would ever be discussed.

  4. #1444
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    I don't think there's anything controversial about this. It's really not that good of a story and the only reason it's worth mentioning these days is because it ended with Joker killing robin. Had it gone the other way (Robin lived) I honestly don't think it would ever be discussed.
    Fair enough. What about not liking the concept of No Man's Land? Just all the other heroes not getting involved and helping Gotham. It's a fictional government, so I could maybe force myself to suspend disbelief to a degree with what happened, if I really wanted to. But I didn't want to. I can handle Batman saying "Gotham's mine" to other heroes because he thinks he's the kind of Gotham and gets to decide all that happens there, or that somehow thinks he'd do better without them than with them. I can't handle all those other major superheroes abiding by his wishes. It's so OOC for some of them that I can't get into the story at all. I know they were given other things to do, but there's just too many heroes for that to work for all of them. I can't swallow the premise, so cannot enjoy the story. Alien invasions, metas, etc. work fine for me. This one does not. Weird, but there you have it.

    Oh, and I absolutely loathe the gay jokes and shipping of Batman and any of his Robins (and that includes Dick and Damian in the roles). They were children in his care. A relationship with one of them is pedophilia. Grooming, even if it happens later. A blatant imbalance of power. Treating it like a same-sex love affair (even as a joke) is just so incredibly wrong-headed to me, because there are so many things wrong with that dynamic. The time Clark and Lois dressed up as Batman and Robin for a costume event and then had an in-costume kiss was not a good thing for me. Joking about Booster and Blue or Tim and Kon is a completely different thing. Heck, even if DC wanted to actually ship them would be fine. But not Batman and Robin, not with their ages and family relationships. I am actually much more okay with pedophile cracks about Batman than gay jokes about Batman and Robin.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-09-2019 at 03:53 PM.

  5. #1445
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Fair enough. What about not liking the concept of No Man's Land? Just all the other heroes not getting involved and helping Gotham. It's a fictional government, so I could maybe force myself to suspend disbelief to a degree with what happened, if I really wanted to. But I didn't want to. I can handle Batman saying "Gotham's mine" to other heroes because he thinks he's the kind of Gotham and gets to decide all that happens there, or that somehow thinks he'd do better without them than with them. I can't handle all those other major superheroes abiding by his wishes. It's so OOC for some of them that I can't get into the story at all. I know they were given other things to do, but there's just too many heroes for that to work for all of them. I can't swallow the premise, so cannot enjoy the story.
    That's an understandable position, i personally stomach it because honestly no Batman fans want to have the JL interfering in a family storyline, you don't pay to read a Batman comic to to read GL doing the heavy lifting, just like i don't want Bruce to help Clark with his problems on Metropolis when the situation gets bad. I do agreed thought that it set a bad precedent for Batman in the future and led Bruce to become an unlikable ******* more often than not (2000s Batman is an awfull human being more often than not), to the point that you wonder why he still have allies.

    Oh, and I absolutely loathe the gay jokes and shipping of Batman and any of his Robins
    You are in luck, in all my time here i have never seen anyone bringing this up, i'm sure that someone has at some point, but is by no means common.
    Last edited by TheCape; 07-09-2019 at 04:28 PM.
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  6. #1446
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Fair enough. What about not liking the concept of No Man's Land? Just all the other heroes not getting involved and helping Gotham. It's a fictional government, so I could maybe force myself to suspend disbelief to a degree with what happened, if I really wanted to. But I didn't want to. I can handle Batman saying "Gotham's mine" to other heroes because he thinks he's the kind of Gotham and gets to decide all that happens there, or that somehow thinks he'd do better without them than with them. I can't handle all those other major superheroes abiding by his wishes. It's so OOC for some of them that I can't get into the story at all. I know they were given other things to do, but there's just too many heroes for that to work for all of them. I can't swallow the premise, so cannot enjoy the story. Alien invasions, metas, etc. work fine for me. This one does not. Weird, but there you have it.
    Unfortunately I can't comment on No Man's Land since I've yet to have the chance to read it. Though, in theory, I think its easier to accept if you have some other major event(s) going on at the same time to explain why nobody came to help.

  7. #1447
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Jason's supposed to be 19!?!?!?!, I keep forgetting how young these characters are supposed to be. He's like 24-25 in my mind, while Dick is 27, and Tim is 18-19.
    Do we have to talk about their ages? It's scary. Actually, I love it, screwed up and contradictory and they are. I don't like the close-age between Dick and Jason, because I'm still stuck on their original (and first post-COIE) age gap of 7 years (or was it 8 pre-crisis). I really have a pet peeve about Jason being made more Dick's peer than Tim's. Tim's who he might have been the same age as (Tim was 13 when introduced, and Jason in 7th grade - not held back - shortly before he died). Or Tim who he might be two years older than (he was said to have died at 15, and Dick was 20 in a NTT shortly post-crisis, and Roy said he was 22 and same age as Dick back before Jason died). But still much closer to Tim's age than Dick's. Though, of course, N52 changed all that. But really, even late post-COIE, they said Dick was 21, which was ridiculous.

    At that age you have pretty much reached your adult hight (and 6'0'' is not that tall). And it is his offical hight.
    Agree there's no reason he shouldn't be that tall. Also, it's sad that official heights are meaningless. Consistency would be nice. Their sizes vary as much as facial features. And teens are short. The original TT grew up overnight (did you see them at Mento and Elastigirl's wedding?). Teenagers are always way too short compared to adults. I understand why for a visual medium - to indicate they are kids - but when a 14 year old girl is 5'3" but she's 5'11 as adult (Cassie Sandsmark), it's just ridiculous.

  8. #1448
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    I don't mind Jason being a little bit closer to Dick in age than Tim.

    But Jason only 19? Come on!

  9. #1449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Do we have to talk about their ages? It's scary. Actually, I love it, screwed up and contradictory and they are. I don't like the close-age between Dick and Jason, because I'm still stuck on their original (and first post-COIE) age gap of 7 years (or was it 8 pre-crisis). I really have a pet peeve about Jason being made more Dick's peer than Tim's. Tim's who he might have been the same age as (Tim was 13 when introduced, and Jason in 7th grade - not held back - shortly before he died). Or Tim who he might be two years older than (he was said to have died at 15, and Dick was 20 in a NTT shortly post-crisis, and Roy said he was 22 and same age as Dick back before Jason died).
    Thats also a pet peeve of me, it is even worse if you compare Jasons age to some other characters, in the orginal NTT run Jason was roughly 3 years younger than Beast Boy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Agree there's no reason he shouldn't be that tall. Also, it's sad that official heights are meaningless. Consistency would be nice. Their sizes vary as much as facial features. And teens are short. The original TT grew up overnight (did you see them at Mento and Elastigirl's wedding?). Teenagers are always way too short compared to adults. I understand why for a visual medium - to indicate they are kids - but when a 14 year old girl is 5'3" but she's 5'11 as adult (Cassie Sandsmark), it's just ridiculous.
    Was Cassy Sandsmark ever drawn that tall (appart from maybe in Titans of Tomorrow), I think he official height was allways something between 5'1 and 5'4.
    What I find more annoying is something like Connor Kent, it makes not much sense that a clone of Superman is still that short as his age or Damian Wayne who is absurdly short for a 13 year old even by comics standards (unless he has his growth spurt really really late, he would as an adult be probably even shorter than Tim is now).

    What also annoys me is how Katana is drawn, she is supposed to be really tiny (5'2''), and was iirc also drawn like that originally (her adoptive dauther Halo was iirc taller than her), but now she allways drawn as roughly 5'8'' which makes her taller than the teen characters.

  10. #1450
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Thats also a pet peeve of me, it is even worse if you compare Jasons age to some other characters, in the orginal NTT run Jason was roughly 3 years younger than Beast Boy.


    Was Cassy Sandsmark ever drawn that tall (appart from maybe in Titans of Tomorrow), I think he official height was allways something between 5'1 and 5'4.
    What I find more annoying is something like Connor Kent, it makes not much sense that a clone of Superman is still that short as his age or Damian Wayne who is absurdly short for a 13 year old even by comics standards (unless he has his growth spurt really really late, he would as an adult be probably even shorter than Tim is now).

    What also annoys me is how Katana is drawn, she is supposed to be really tiny (5'2''), and was iirc also drawn like that originally (her adoptive dauther Halo was iirc taller than her), but now she allways drawn as roughly 5'8'' which makes her taller than the teen characters.
    a 13 year old will grow eventually you don't know what his parents were like at his age nor do you know the side effects of whatever Talia added to her baby brew. I won't stress over Damian and Tim since they are still growing boys.

  11. #1451
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    It’s not until DKR or DKSA that Miller ruined Batman. Year One usually is regarded as his best work and most decent, but it’s already bad and misunderstood Batman on an fundamental level. To me it’s even worse because it’s in the mainverse in stead of its earth where it belongs.

  12. #1452
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    a 13 year old will grow eventually you don't know what his parents were like at his age nor do you know the side effects of whatever Talia added to her baby brew. I won't stress over Damian and Tim since they are still growing boys.
    Damians official Height is 4'6'', and that fits with how he is usually drawn, thats roughly the average height of a 10 year old, and about 8 inch shorter than an average 13 year old.
    It is of cause possible that Damian might just hit puberty extremely late, but if his development is otherwise normal he would probably end up beeing something like 5'0'' as an adult.

    And when it come to Tim and his generation, they are all 16 or 17, most people are pretty close to their final height at this age.

  13. #1453
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Here's my "controversial Bat-Family opinion": Tom King is the best Batman/Batman Family writer of all time. True story.

  14. #1454
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Damians official Height is 4'6'', and that fits with how he is usually drawn, thats roughly the average height of a 10 year old, and about 8 inch shorter than an average 13 year old.
    It is of cause possible that Damian might just hit puberty extremely late, but if his development is otherwise normal he would probably end up beeing something like 5'0'' as an adult.

    And when it come to Tim and his generation, they are all 16 or 17, most people are pretty close to their final height at this age.
    Like I said I don't much mind because they are still growing even though people have reached their adult size by 16 it wouldn't feel like too much of an asspull if Tim suddenly shot up in height.

    Damian doesn't yet have a consistent appearance for when he's older. he's either tall and slender like Talia or built like a tank. Either way he's always tall so I like to think he'll have a spurt later.

  15. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Like I said I don't much mind because they are still growing even though people have reached their adult size by 16 it wouldn't feel like too much of an asspull if Tim suddenly shot up in height.
    Still something like the Titans of Tomorrow Tim version, where he has suddenly Bruce height and build and completely dwarf his 16 year old self seems off.
    It would be also kind of wired if his whole team would suddenly hit a growth spurt at the age of 18.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian doesn't yet have a consistent appearance for when he's older. he's either tall and slender like Talia or built like a tank. Either way he's always tall so I like to think he'll have a spurt later.
    I wondering if we will see at some point a tiny adult Damian

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