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  1. #1471
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No, I take issue with an authority figure as a fellow worker in the hero businesses with her when I specifically thought (incorrectly) and chose to read her because she was unlike the Bat proteges specifically because she didn't have an authority figure like they did.
    And she doesn't. Jacob isn't her boss. Your initial thought still seems to be correct.

    Yes, she is supposed to do that herself. Just like Bruce did. Just like every silver age hero did.
    my problem is that I had a certain expectation based on what I'd read about the character. The first few issues of Detective Comics dashed my expectations of that by not having her in control and setting the course and making the decisions and getting to do all those things heroes used to get to do for themselves.
    So you basically just want her to be like every other superhero?
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  2. #1472
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    The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.

  3. #1473
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I take issue with an authority figure as a fellow worker in the hero businesses with her when I specifically thought (incorrectly) and chose to read her because she was unlike the Bat proteges specifically because she didn't have an authority figure like they did.
    You won't like what happened with the 'Tec run of Gotham Knights, and her most recent solo then, since she became subordinate to Batman.

    Supposedly they were set up as equals for the Team, but really, since Batman was able to dismiss Batwoman from the Team and she obeyed - she was subordinate. Plus he manipulated her into joining his team as a means of controlling her so she wouldn't join her father's Colony group - which by the way her father was trying to manipulate her into joining. So she was caught between two male family members trying to control her and decide her future for her. And don't get me started on all 3 of the Bat-Kids in the team, at some point, using her as a punching bag (both verbally and physically) when she didn't behave in a way that they wanted. Didn't see them physically smacking Batman around, though Steph did attack every other adult on the team besides Batman. There was context, but it matters little, since the pattern repeated 3 times (on Batwoman, no other adult member of the team got such abuse from all 3 kids) so they all got a turn.

    Furthermore, what I really didn't like with the second solo is, Batman ordered Batwoman to investigate a terrorist network, so she does. On top of that, he sends Julia Pennyworth to babysit and spy on her, and they literally refer to her as a babysitter at one point, so it's not like they were even trying to hide it. And if that wasn't enough, by the end of that solo Batwoman and Batman have a fight, because of course they do, with Batwoman pleading with Batman to not put her sister in Arkham and Batman deciding whether he'd let Batwoman stay in the city - the gall of it.

    But the worst of the worst was after the creative team for the original solo was replaced - the replacement writer not only turned her into a ditz but had her repeatedly raped and mind controlled by a vampire, and then had the perpetrator victim-blame Batwoman by the end of it.

    So I get where you are coming from, definitely.

    That said, I still love Batwoman, but what keeps getting done with the character is frustrating. I'm hopeful that the TV series does a better job of respecting the character.

  4. #1474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.
    That's incredibly fair and accurate. What would be really fascinating to see is someone addressing them within the context of actual history. Having read half of Empires of the Silk Roads (Beckwith, Princeton University Press 2011), I desperately want to read something where the writers examine Ra's within the context of Eurasian history between 100-900. The fact that he's obviously Avar or Tocharian ought to be explored. I mean, have you considered Ra's and the collapse of the Turk Dynasty, the Arabic empire, the Tibetan empire, and the struggles of the Tang dynasty during the mid 700s which was all clearly a connected to each other and orchestrated through the Sogdians?

  5. #1475
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.
    Everything is a trope or cliche at this point. So should DC just erase these characters/idea or what? How do you update them to not be outdated?

    I thought the point was that the League was to be outdated idea. Since they are an ancient secret order that is hell bent on creating a perfect world. That kind of thinking doesn't really fly anymore and hasn't really for a really long time.
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  6. #1476
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Everything is a trope or cliche at this point.
    This is as weak a response to what I said as you could possibly get.




    So should DC just erase these characters/idea or what?
    You tell me, seeing as how I never suggested erasing them.

    How do you update them to not be outdated?
    Not writing them as a mish-mash of vaguely defined Asian and Middle Eastern cultures would be a start.

    Of course, I'm sure any attempt to update them will likely be met with hostility from certain segments of fans.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-14-2019 at 05:15 PM.

  7. #1477
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is as weak a response to what I said as you could possibly get.





    You tell me, seeing as how I never suggested erasing them.



    Not writing them as a mish-mash of vaguely defined Asian and Middle Eastern cultures would be a start.

    Of course, I'm sure any attempt to update them will likely be met with hostility from certain segments of fans.



    That's not what I'm referring to when I call them outdated and you know it.
    I find complaining about tropes to be the basis for a weak start to an argument/point. Every story has been told, tropes/cliches are just foundations/shorthand for people to use and I only ever see people use the word trope(s) as a negative buzzword.

    I didn't say you suggested it, just wanted to know if you had a solution or idea in mind. That vaguely defined Asian/Middle eastern fusion to me felt like DC's Latveria or another Kandaq. Just another fictional area in the comic universe so I never thought of it as meant to be offensive/outdated or what have you. Just a made up culture for the world like the Dothraki in GoT.

    And no I don't know what you mean. I only said what I mean when I think of the League of Assassins, about their order and way of doing things.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  8. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    I find complaining about tropes to be the basis for a weak start to an argument/point. Every story has been told, tropes/cliches are just foundations/shorthand for people to use and I only ever see people use the word trope(s) as a negative buzzword.

    I didn't say you suggested it, just wanted to know if you had a solution or idea in mind. That vaguely defined Asian/Middle eastern fusion to me felt like DC's Latveria or another Kandaq. Just another fictional area in the comic universe so I never thought of it as meant to be offensive/outdated or what have you. Just a made up culture for the world like the Dothraki in GoT.

    And no I don't know what you mean. I only said what I mean when I think of the League of Assassins, about their order and way of doing things.
    Here is my comment again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The al Ghuls and the League of Assassins are a mess of outdated Orientalist tropes.
    Emphasis mine. I don't have an issue with tropes in and of themselves. I have a problem with bad, racist tropes like the ones the LoA embody. How you came to the conclusion I was complaining about tropes themselves I have no idea.

    "Everything is a cliche" is a weak argument because at no point was I complaining about them being cliche.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-14-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  9. #1479
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    I find those that complain about overused tropes, are overused tropes.

  10. #1480
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    I find those that complain about overused tropes, are overused tropes.
    Okay, how is that a controversial Batman opinion?
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

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  11. #1481
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Okay, how is that a controversial Batman opinion?
    It was merely in response to the previous few posts complaining about it. Wasn't really meant to be read as a new idea in the thread.

  12. #1482
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here is my comment again:



    Emphasis mine. I don't have an issue with tropes in and of themselves. I have a problem with bad, racist tropes like the ones the LoA embody. How you came to the conclusion I was complaining about tropes themselves I have no idea.

    "Everything is a cliche" is a weak argument because at no point was I complaining about them being cliche.
    You were complaining about the trope. Tropes and cliches often blend together. Like the old secret society of ninjas could be considered a trope right? If that trope is considered to be over-used it becomes cliche as-well. So that's where my line of thinking was so I don't think it's out of nowhere. It's not like bringing up the stock market or something. There's a relation.

    What has been racist about the LoA in recent years? I haven't read anything recent about them since Red Robin.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  13. #1483
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    It was merely in response to the previous few posts complaining about it. Wasn't really meant to be read as a new idea in the thread.
    Okay then.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  14. #1484
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    You were complaining about the trope. Tropes and cliches often blend together. Like the old secret society of ninjas could be considered a trope right? If that trope is considered to be over-used it becomes cliche as-well. So that's where my line of thinking was so I don't think it's out of nowhere. It's not like bringing up the stock market or something. There's a relation.

    What has been racist about the LoA in recent years? I haven't read anything recent about them since Red Robin.
    Again, I am not complaining about this particular trope because it is overused. I am complaining about it being bad, plain and simple.

    It's not recent years. It's pretty much everything about them since their conception. The aforementioned mish mash of Asian and Middle Eastern cultures that pretty much screams 1970s Orientalism.

  15. #1485
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    I completely forgot I created this thread. Anyway.

    The idea of Dick leaving Nightwing behind to try and pursue a normal life isn't a bad concept. Ric Grayson is just the entirely wrong way to go about it.

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