Watchmen is the Best at.... What?

[t hedge coke]

It's arguable that it is on top in the super-hero genre, but there are several books out of the genre that top it easily. American Flagg! comes to mind, for one, (in the similar genre).
Planetary is another, for me.

I'd put Planetary over Watchmen on any front I can think of. A highly praised comic that's still somehow really underrated.

[Sandy Hausler]

Fair enough. I can see that.

Out of curiosity, what super hero comic do you think has been done better?

Depends on the criteria. I think Enigma is more elegant and more "how it'd really be if..." as well as doing the "how gods might think" thing better. I think The Gargoyle uses a lot of the same storytelling techniques as Watchmen, but does so more maturely and more smoothly integrated and not popping out to announce themselves as often (which, really, I think worked in Watchmen's favor, I just don't care for it as much). I think Cobweb is more fun and prettier than Watchmen. While Squadron Supreme or DP7 are certainly hammier than Watchmen, and not as tight, I find them more resonant for me, in terms of the human condition and societal potential. I think some of Melinda Gebbie's early one-page comics are much stronger than Watchmen's entire several hundred pages. I don't want to see Kirby's braver or smarter than Moore, but in terms of their comics, reading Kirby's operatic and miasmic Fourth World seems more agreeable to me than the world or dynamics of Watchmen, I have a greater tendency to agree with the moral structure of the stories and the types of energies and frissons therein. I think Vinamarama is way more romantic that Watchmen and more sensitive to scale and perspectives of breathing, living people inside an engineered and immense world.

But, that's the thing, I don't rank most superhero stories all that high in terms of overall comics. And, I don't rank Watchmen that high outside of its historic impact and influence on other books. For me, otherwise, it's very well made, but not the best at any particular one thing, or even a cluster of things. And, clearly, some very intelligent, well-versed people whose tastes I trust do rank it up high in many respects.

I really do appreciate everyone's contributions to this thread and letting me sort of peer around in your heads in regards to this comic.

I'm sure I read Gargoyle because I read almost everything in that time period, but I remember nothing about it. Enigma is another book I read. I remember the book, but also remember disliking it by the end -- and again I have no recollection of what it was about (though I remember something about the lead character changing sexual orientation). I'm not much of a fan of the sketchy art style on that book (one of the few things I remember about it). Squadron Supreme and DP7 and liked them both, but neither, in my opinion was even close to Watchman.

I've never heard of Vanamarama.

Again, this is all just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to his or her own preference.

Sandy Hausler

[PlumeNoir]

I don't know if I could quantify it as "the best" - but it's pretty darn close.
As someone who read this when it came out, I can't help but wonder how it it would be for someone who has been reading comics the past ten years or so to pick up Watchmen for the first time.

The thing that I find fascinating is that Watchmen is something that couldn't be done in any other medium (I'll come back to the film). It is a celebration of sequential art and uses every nuance to its full advantage: the pacing, the "pulp" feel of the heroes, the symbolism, the parallels of the Black Freighter story, headlines and news reports...everything was so layered (compared to what was the norm in American comics at the time) that the world felt real and interconnected. It was the first comic that I would notice something new with every re-reading (the same with Sandman).

I feel I have to mention the movie, as it proves my point: Watchmen is just too "big" for a movie, TV show, animated feature, etc. to have all the nuances included without messing up the pacing. That said, I think Snyder did a fantastic job with the opening of the film. And, I will say this, as I know it's an unpopular opinion: I like the S.Q.U.I.D ending of the movie better than the comic. Especially once the artists/ writers/ etc. subplot was eliminated from the film, the comic ending would have made no sense.

[rightsuperhero]

Perfection is in the details and Watchmen had many perfect details to thumb through. And if you have to ask why Watchmen was great, well...

[Jon-El]

It was the first time I read a comic that did an in depth look at the characters lives rather than be about some outside menace. I loved it but never wanted mainstream books to emulate it or DK for that matter. I liked the occasional mature story but I wanted them mostly outside the main super hero line.

[Conway]

I'd put Planetary over Watchmen on any front I can think of. A highly praised comic that's still somehow really underrated.

I'm beginning to think the problem isn't with the fact that Watchmen is good, it's that you feel it's overrated. The problem here is that these lists are subjective. There is no Wayne Gretzky of graphic comics. While we can all agree that Fast and Furious 3: Tokyo Drift is not the greatest car movie ever, not everyone can agree that Bullit is. I have friends that can't stand the Beatles, does that mean that the Beatles weren't great?

I personally think that even V for Vendetta is better than Watchmen. There are people who think Year One is the greatest graphic novel ever. The fact is out of 100 readers Watchmen would make the top ten list for 97 of them. Maybe nobody placed it higher than 3rd or 4th but the fact that it's the only one on that many lists moves it to the top.

[DIVINITY]

From a craft standpoint, I think Watchmen is among the best-- if not the best-- at transtioning between scenes in a portentious and meaningful manner, something that is critically undervalued as a storytelling tool. The way the text and images synch up so perfectly is absolutely masterful. Everything is its right place for maximum effect. You can tell how much care and effort has been placed into those transitions and how they heighten the suspense. I don't think any comic nails those perfect transtitions quite as impressively, except (maybe) the first year of American Flagg!.

I think Watchmen may also be the finest example of how page design can truly provide an emotional underpining to the story being told. The relentless use the nine panel grid provides such an oppressive, claustrophobic atmosphere of suspense and inevitablity. It actually enhances the feeling of dread and suspense, and it makes you want to turn the page. However, Gibbons is so good at what he does that the action within the panels never feels short-shifted or reduced-- he does more in a tiny panel in a nine-page grid than most artists can do in a splash page. When the story finally opens up in the splash where we first see NYC destoyed, we are devasted like the city, having been so conditioned by the use of the tight nine panel gird that we as readers are overwhelmed by the scope of this gigantic image. It's an absolutely brilliant storyteling technique, a narrative gut punch of the highest order.

Yup, that about sums it up, I couldn't have said it better.

Hands down, Best Ever!!!!

[ed2962]

i guess I'm kinda echoing what other posters have, but a lot of Watchmen's impact comes from the time it was published. Definitely it was informed by running contrast to most fans perceptions of what mainstream superheroes were supposed to represent, but also by the intense cold war paranoia that was present in the real world.

But divorced from all that, it's still a fascinating examination of comic book storytelling. The layouts, the transitions, the repeated symbols, the flashbacks all combined to make it a great example of what can be done with the medium. It's all those things ( plus the psychology...which I think some people miss) that make it worthy of consideration.

[ParticleFreezer]

Moore took the 6 shttiest characters in the dc universe and made a decent story with em. No, even better... He took the derivatives Of the 6 shttiest and made a Classic Epic story! Let's see someone today do a superhero tale with a bunch of no names that can sell on a Superman Batman level.

My grandma can write Batman, what Moore did with what he was given is nothing short of amazing.

[JackDaw]

I'd put Planetary over Watchmen on any front I can think of. A highly praised comic that's still somehow really underrated.

I know what I'm about to say is completely subjective...but I think the story itself in Watchmen is far more involving, fast paced and thought provoking.

For me, I came away from Watchmen firmly believing that Alan Moore started with a specific story that he deeply cared about, and then thought long and hard about the best way of telling that story. He made technique the servant of the story.

On other hand...I thought Warren Ellis to some extent in Planetary obscured and slowed down the central story in Planetary because he wanted to explore some grand concepts and try out some interesting techniques.

So for me...who basically reads super hero yarns...for fast paced stories that are easy to follow I found Watchmen "better". And on this occasion I thought Alan Moore did a wonderful job of making that fast paced story thought provoking. (In my opinion its a far greater skill to make an easy to follow story thought provoking, rather than do a "Grant Morrison" and make a story difficult to actually understand.)

I'm obviously not saying "Planetary" was bad! (Indeed I enjoyed it enough to re-read in the future, and I re-read very few comics. Won't be at all surprised if I find a lot of things I missed on first read, and end up rating it even more highly than I do now.)

[dancj]

From a craft standpoint, I think Watchmen is among the best-- if not the best-- at transtioning between scenes in a portentious and meaningful manner, something that is critically undervalued as a storytelling tool. The way the text and images synch up so perfectly is absolutely masterful. Everything is its right place for maximum effect. You can tell how much care and effort has been placed into those transitions and how they heighten the suspense. I don't think any comic nails those perfect transtitions quite as impressively, except (maybe) the first year of American Flagg!.

I think Watchmen may also be the finest example of how page design can truly provide an emotional underpining to the story being told. The relentless use the nine panel grid provides such an oppressive, claustrophobic atmosphere of suspense and inevitablity. It actually enhances the feeling of dread and suspense, and it makes you want to turn the page. However, Gibbons is so good at what he does that the action within the panels never feels short-shifted or reduced-- he does more in a tiny panel in a nine-page grid than most artists can do in a splash page. When the story finally opens up in the splash where we first see NYC destoyed, we are devasted like the city, having been so conditioned by the use of the tight nine panel gird that we as readers are overwhelmed by the scope of this gigantic image. It's an absolutely brilliant storyteling technique, a narrative gut punch of the highest order.

Largely what I was going to say - but said better than I would have said it.

[DIVINITY]

Really? I've read a lot of comics since Watchmen, but I have yet to see it's equal, at least not in the super hero genre.

+ A Milli...