Kelly Sue DeConnick to depart "Captain Marvel" post-"Secret Wars"

[PiercedMonk]

The thing is, you're taking "token" as a bad thing, when it really doesn't need to be.

No, tokenism is pretty much universally recognized as a bad thing. It's a basically throwing a bone to minority groups so they can't complain about not being represented, as opposed to making a real effort to develop characters that represent that group. Regardless of what anyone thinks about Kelly Sue DeConnick's run on CAPTAIN MARVEL, it would be disingenuous to claim that Marvel isn't putting in the work with regards to Carol.

The only reason someone would use the term token to refer to a character would be to diminish that character, or because they don't really understand what it means.

[t hedge coke]

Yes, I can, and already have in my previous posts, as well as your slyly posted jab involving her movie.

The thing is, you're taking "token" as a bad thing, when it really doesn't need to be. When the wider audiance thinks DC, they think the big 3, Supes, Bats, and WW. Marvel doesn't have a female character that has that kind of, let's call it brand recognition, and with the increasing demand for strong female leads, they want one. They want Carol to be a character that when people think Marvel, she comes forefront. My only point has been that she may not be right female character for that position. Though that's very likely to change after the movie, it hasn't happened yet despite the considerable effort that's been put into her.

You're still not defining why you think she's a token, just that she is. And, yes, the term is always pejorative. By it's nature it is always a bad thing, even if it does some incidental good.

If all it is, is that Marvel is promoting her, than all the characters they promote are tokens. At which point, why use the term?

Are they using her as a mascot for Marvel in some venues? Yes. A mascot is not a token. The terms don't mean the same thing. Is she being used as a recognizable face for kickass female superhero at Marvel? Sure. Doesn't make her a token. Is this one of the few female-led books Marvel will put out this calendar year? Yeah. One of, not the only, and regardless, there's no evidence I can see - unless you have some to present - that justifies applying the word token.

Is she a character you're not fond of in the very visible position she's being put in by the company? Apparently. But, that, also, doesn't make her a token or her book a token book. It just means you think Marvel's making a mistake, which, while absolutely within your rights, doesn't make that pejorative term applicable to the character or the comics, unless you have specific evidence to bring in.

[Agent Scarlet]

You're still not defining why you think she's a token, just that she is. And, yes, the term is always pejorative. By it's nature it is always a bad thing, even if it does some incidental good.

If all it is, is that Marvel is promoting her, than all the characters they promote are tokens. At which point, why use the term?

Are they using her as a mascot for Marvel in some venues? Yes. A mascot is not a token. The terms don't mean the same thing. Is she being used as a recognizable face for kickass female superhero at Marvel? Sure. Doesn't make her a token. Is this one of the few female-led books Marvel will put out this calendar year? Yeah. One of, not the only, and regardless, there's no evidence I can see - unless you have some to present - that justifies applying the word token.

Is she a character you're not fond of in the very visible position she's being put in by the company? Apparently. But, that, also, doesn't make her a token or her book a token book. It just means you think Marvel's making a mistake, which, while absolutely within your rights, doesn't make that pejorative term applicable to the character or the comics, unless you have specific evidence to bring in.

This post pretty much just sums up all of my own posts in terms of promotion over others (including females) and brand recognition, but while leaving out the parallels to WW and DC. If your position now is to sum up my points as your own while claiming I haven't made them, you have nothing else to contribute and the conversation has become cyclical, not to mention way off topic.

[PwrdOn]

I can certainly understand the need to hype up Captain Marvel, at the time it was first launched Marvel was publishing exactly zero female led titles and was being criticized quite heavily for it. There were certainly high expectations that DeConnick could deliver a hit, as a proof of concept for other such books. It feels like a lot of people had pinned their hopes on the book being a smashing success, and when this didn't happen they just went on pretending as if it had.

DeConnick's writing isn't necessarily bad, but it was hardly anything groundbreaking. The book received a lot of praise for depicting a confident and capable heroine who didn't dress in a revealing costume, but as far as comics go this isn't really anything new and has been the norm for quite some time, after all you don't really see many of those 90s era oversexualized bad girls anymore. There was little about the actual content that stood out as especially noteworthy and it definitely seemed like one of those books that you could basically get the gist of without ever actually reading, which I suppose is good for promotional purposes but doesn't speak well for its literary merit.

[totalsellout]

the word token is insulting, it is not a synonym for diversity . i think the op meant to use token to mean marvel's push for diversity. no harm done, but in the future realize tokenism is an insulting way to describe what you were talking about.


the more you know.

[Sans Simian]

The only reason someone would use the term token to refer to a character would be to diminish that character, or because they don't really understand what it means.

[Steve068]

The only reason someone would use the term token to refer to a character would be to diminish that character, or because they don't really understand what it means.

Or because that character was the only character of their type on a team roster...

[totalsellout]

Or because that character was the only character of their type on a team roster...

well, we are discussing a solo book so that isnt really relevant.

but, even then, being the only person of a certain group on a team does not make you a token member. to be a token member, you have to be the only person of a certain group and that's the only reason you are on the group. even in an avengers line up where carol is the only female (which i don't think has ever happened), her history and power set make her more than deserving of a place on the roster.

[Mike82]

I'm kind of glad KSD is moving on from Captain Marvel. I didn't mind the first volume, but I wasn't too excited about the Adventures of Carol and Space-Cat. Her showdown against the Spartax was the most exciting thing that happened in that series, everything else was just boring. I would have liked to have seen more action. Some of the characterization seemed a bit off at times. That panel where she was taunting that alien dude to hit just didn't seem like Carol to me.

[Charlie_1981]

I liked the first run of Kelly Sue DeConnick in Captain Marvel, but among the awful new costume and the disaster of different artists who completely broke the rhythm, I don´t like it, the second run I found it very weak and the whole space thing make me to drop it very soon, even with the great art by David Lopez, then there is the thing of the Carol Corps that I've never understood.

Honestly, I miss the old days from classic runs like Conway and Claremont and also Brian Reed run a few years ago.

[mysterio1989]

Aside from the new costume I found her run lacking since vol. 1. nothing really grabbed my attention it was basically flat.

[Wandacrystal22]

I'm happy Kelly is leaving. Maybe Carol can be badass again. PLEASE GET STARLIN, MARVEL!

[kevlon]

I tried to get into the book but just couldn't. I found it a little boring...

I would have liked to have seen Moonstone rise to become her arch nemesis.

[Mike82]

I tried to get into the book but just couldn't. I found it a little boring...

I would have liked to have seen Moonstone rise to become her arch nemesis.

Yeah, but instead we get Grace Valentine.

[Fuzzy Barbarian]

Meh. Her run was pretty average. There were some good moments, but overall, I feel that is she didn't give Carol the Captain Marvel name, the series would've gone generally unnoticed.

I wonder who will be taking over? Hopefully not Kelly Thompson. I think G. Willow Wilson could do a good job. Maybe even bring Brian Reed back?