The New Marvel Universe: I'm not liking this.

[Prof. Warren]

Why did you post this? If you don't care for the ops points why feel the need to respond or intelligently debate?

Someone's unhappy with a radical series of moves by a company who continues to diss core fans?

BTW market share we can thank all that mainly on Star Wars, MCU and DCs ineptitude..for awhile it was waning...take the star wars out and the flubbed numbers aren't so sexy.

The OP is just indulging in the same, tired whining we've heard over and over again. Some fans hate change. We get it. Some fans feel that Marvel should cater solely to them. We get it. Some fans feel personally offended when Marvel has their own ideas of how to run their company. We get it.

There's nothing to "intelligently debate" here.

When the OP has his own comic company to run, he can implement his own amazing ideas on how to promote diversity and introduce new characters into the marketplace.

But when suggesting that the only way to promote diversity is to create new characters and let them advance on their own, keep in mind a few things.

One, it's essentially a racist argument. What you're really saying is that the only way a female or minority character should succeed in any "valid" way is for them to start at the back of the line. If they don't, any success they have isn't "real." It's saying that even though these other established characters have a headstart in every way, doing anything to give female or minority characters a leg up in visibility (like letting them take on the mantle of a popular hero) is the equivalent of cheating and is unfairly "rigging the game," so to speak.

Two, you have to ask yourself - how many new characters of any gender or ethnic background have broken out in the modern age without being tied to some larger franchise? Very, very few. Really, off the top of my head I can't think of any. This is why other comic companies besides Marvel and DC haven't been able to have much success with superheroes - the public tends to stick with the iconic characters they know. It's almost impossible for an entirely original character to "break out" in any meaningful way.

Take a character like Triathalon. This is (more or less) exactly what the OP describes. He was tied to an existing hero but yet that hero was the 3D Man, so it's practically like a new character because who remembers the 3D Man? But he was a new black hero, introduced into one of the biggest franchises in comics (The Avengers) with a superstar creative team (Busiek and Perez) and yet despite a prominent role in that '90s Avengers run, I don't think he's been seen or mentioned since. He was an element of diversity in The Avengers, yes, but his tenure with Earth's Mightiest Heroes left little impact.

So when fans argue that female and minority characters ought to start from behind, basically, and gain their popularity "the right way", as we've seen argued time and again on these boards, it speaks to a desire to pay lip service to diversity without really wanting to see that diversity change anything.

When characters like Sam Wilson and Jane Foster and Miles Morales get promoted to roles of genuine prominence in the Marvel U it's a big deal and a commendable move on Marvel's part. As such, I applaud it.

[Darthkostis]

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The same thread over and over and over and over again. It makes you feel trapped in an endless loop... In all seriousness, the same thread pops up every.damn.month with nothing new to offer, nothing new to discuss, just to recycle the same old "argument". Let's break it down a bit:

1)Prices are going up. Content is going down. The economy is in shambles. So do you really think that people are going to buy a no name hero/heroine with no attachment to any of the big names? Valiant is getting rave reviews. Better than most Big 2 books. Do you see their books at the top 10? Top 100? Maybe Top 200 or 300. So to answer your "question", no, a minority/LGBT character can't just debut in an Avengers book and then get a spin-off. Why? Because (s)he's an entirely new character, with no antagonists, no ties or anything and also has an all-new name.

2)You mention "advertise" the new characters. Well, honestly, where? The only place where it will be made known through a show will be the US. That's cool, that's the major market. But really, what show can "advertise" them? Small kids watch cartoons, which have no ads, teens watch tv shows which, again, have no ads, so you're left with talk shows. Who watches talk shows? The "grown-ups". And I really, really don't think a 50 year old woman or man, who was watching Oprah or Larry King is going to go out of his/her way to buy a new comic. And now you're saying, "But what about the news?" Yeah, I think the news have more important things to report than comic books. Therefore, the only way to advertise your new character to your "audience" is either through comic sites, the net in general, or the books themselves.

3)Imagine you have a budget of 60 euros. Each book costs 5 euros. People like me need to subscribe, so even if I hate the book, I'll have to pay for it for 3 months. Now, do you think a person with a limited budget is going to buy a no name someone or go for something he knows for sure he'll enjoy? My bet's that he's going to buy Spider-Man and Wolverine and not for the all-new guy/gal with 10 appearances under his/her belt and no antagonists. Back then, comics cost far, far less, thus, people could take chances, try things. Now, they simply can't, even if they want to.

4)What the heck is the problem with having 2 Spider-Men? Heck, what's the problem with 5 Spider-Men?! People choose what they want and that's okay. Or what's the problem with Steve Rogers and Odinson taking a different role for a while? You're telling me that you've read EVERY Thor, Cap, Spider-Man, etc, etc book that exists? You can't wait for I don't know, 2 years when they'll eventually return? For you, Rogers is the OG. But for someone else, Bucky might have been his favourite Cap. Or heck, maybe a kid's first comic was All-New Cap #1 so for him, Sam IS Cap. Steve has had the same damn role for nearly 70 years. I think he's fought the Red Skull, Zemo, Strucker, etc to last a lifetime. Don't you want to read something else and new?

Basically the whole argument can be summed up like this: I grew up with [insert character's name here] so I want him to keep this certain codename for ever and ever and ever. Or at least until I'm dead and can no longer read comics, who cares then? I just don't like change!!!
Look, I get it. We all like reading what we're comfortable with and hell, why should we care about anything else? We go on about our daily lives and pretty much care about our happiness and that's normal. But there are 70 years worth of Cap comics you can go back to if he loses his mantle for a while. And that's alright as well. Another kid may have never discovered comics were it not for Sam or Thor if it wasn't for Foster. Now, the B listers can shine for a while and the A listers can be in new stories. We all love seeing Thor kick some Frost Giant but I think it's time for some new "situations"

To summarize , I get where you're coming from, I really do. But I think it's high time for some other people to get their wish. Do you have to like it? No, no you don't. Go and try some DC, Image, Valiant stuff. And when you think it's time to come back, do so. No one is forcing you to buy NuThor or FalCap.

[rdman]

From what I heard about the new MU, I am very concerned if it will be the Marvel we know and love. Instead I'm hearing political correctness for this "reboot". Oops I mean relaunch. Everything is rubbing me the wrong way. I'm about to get more DC comics for my superhero crave because they are trying to do some innovative things. They are not perfect, but they are learning. Marvel looks like they are being controlled by higher ups that want to kick out the old generation and go for the new MCU/Ultimate Spider-man generation. That pisses me off. Hell, Marvel is trying to do a half assed attempt for a young avengers with putting Kamala, Sam, and, Miles to the Avengers. Are the veterans so irresponsible that they would have CHILDREN on a response group team?! Also, I'm still mad the way they are treating the Nova Corps. Also, Iron Man being the mascot of Marvel….fat chance. Good luck dethroning Spidey. All because RDJ and his EGO.

The reason why I'm ranting is because i'm worried and concerned that what's left of 616 won't be as iconic in the new universe. I'm all up for chance and modernization. But, changing for the sake of change gets me frustrated. What get's me really upset is the race and gender changing. That really irritates me. I'll tell you what I don't like:


Sam Wilson as the New Captain America (Sam is not as fun as he was when he was Falcon)

Jane Foster as Thor (Don't care what anyone says…THERE IS ONLY ONE THOR AND HIS NAME IS ODINSON)


I feel like they are gonna race change and gender swap the old characters…. as a black man I ask this….WHY NOT CREATE NEW CHARACTERS?! HOW HARD IS IT TO PROMOTE.


Here's how to do it:


1. Create that character in a popular title to give him that attention (like Spider-man)

2. You announce a solo title for the character

3. You PROMOTE the character anywhere you can (Conventions, TV, Comic stores, etc)

4. Put a great writer of color or gender to that character. Hell even someone white would be good if they can understand the character and give them a mythology for them (AL EWING)

5. Get an A list artist to be on a title for each arc.



THERE: see how easy that was. I don't think what's so hard about this.

Wrapping up: Are you all afraid of the Marvel Universe not being the MU you know for 75 years. Do you agree with Marvel's PC changes or some of it's hate for certain characters and things not in the Universe?

Yeah I have to agree with you on odinson though I like ultimate thor better. But because of marketing demands and that teh readershup is half female, they got to have a female thor.

But as a compromise perhaps Thor Corps in the post Secret Wars. I think the same could said of Captain Marvel. Not feelinga a Carrol Danvers character all the time, would prefer a blue skin straight-male Kree.

[DrNewGod]

Also, Iron Man being the mascot of Marvel….fat chance. Good luck dethroning Spidey. All because RDJ and his EGO.

I think that has more to do with the movie characters that Disney owns and doesn't have to share with Fox than it does with the actor. Of those that Disney gets to keep all the $ from, Iron Man's been the biggest success, so (IMO) they're going to push him harder. Also, entrepreneurial tech execs are cool right now. Let there be a few ugly reveals at Apple, Google and Tesla, and promoting someone like Stark's going to get a bit tougher.

WHY NOT CREATE NEW CHARACTERS?! HOW HARD IS IT TO PROMOTE.

Because writers and artists aren't willing to give away a potential Superman or Spider-Man anymore, and the studios don't want to pay an adequate share for those characters, or to invest in the marketing costs to build such characters when they have existing brands that can be more easily exploited. It's taken almost 40 years to get Carol Danvers off the ground, and She-Hulk's never been able to sustain a series.

Wrapping up: Are you all afraid of the Marvel Universe not being the MU you know for 75 years. Do you agree with Marvel's PC changes or some of it's hate for certain characters and things not in the Universe?

I don't like changing characters I've loved for the sake of appearing (note, I said appearing, not actually being) in synch with the times. While I agree that the MU doesn't reflect diverse realities, there was nothing wrong with the characters who got retrofitted. I would have liked to see development of new characters, using titles like the X-Men, Avengers and New Warriors to develop them. That's NOT what's going to happen because of its more efficient to attempt modifying an existing brand than it is to build a new one.

However, if the sales drop, you may be assured that the same people who tried to promote these retrofits as diversity, will be the first ones to default to the established brand characters. It's happened before.

[Colossus1980]

Reading this reminds me of old comic complaint letters.

Especially the backseat driving in how to run a comic publication. I mean, I don't really care about your points, but it's amusing to see someone not in an industry tell people in an industry how to do things in their industry. Especially when those people currently have market share dominance.

Kinda like telling google how to make a search engine. I think they got it down.

Yes you are right. No poster should have his own opinion and voice it out. If you are not happy with the way things are done, shut up and let things be.

[Colossus1980]

For the posters who hate the whiners, don't read the thread. Simple.

[aja_christopher]

The world is diverse and Marvel is smart to go after said market -- anyone who doesn't see this is living in the past.

Moreover, if you feel that you can do a better job of creating original "minority" characters, then do so... and I say that as someone who practices what they preach.

It make little sense to criticize Marvel for changing direction when it's not so long ago that these same comics were on the verge of bankruptcy, and realistically, if these new ideas don't work out, then they can always 'revert' back to the old as needed.

Regardless, I don't see the point in "worrying" about more diversity -- if the stories and art are good then that is all that should matter.

[skyvolt2000]

I feel like they are gonna race change and gender swap the old characters…. as a black man I ask this….WHY NOT CREATE NEW CHARACTERS?! HOW HARD IS IT TO PROMOTE.

Here's how to do it:

1. Create that character in a popular title to give him that attention (like Spider-man)

2. You announce a solo title for the character

3. You PROMOTE the character anywhere you can (Conventions, TV, Comic stores, etc)

4. Put a great writer of color or gender to that character. Hell even someone white would be good if they can understand the character and give them a mythology for them (AL EWING)

5. Get an A list artist to be on a title for each arc.

You act like Marvel has not TRIED new guys. They have however many factors kick in especially when it comes to MINORITIES.

1) who stocks the book & trade? I can list a lot of books comic stores don't stock even if you ask for them including some that have gotten a ton press like Archie Afterlife.

2) Who is allowed to use the character in other books? How many other books have you seen Ms Marvel or Miles in when they first came out? Yet how many books did you Deadpool in?
You got editors that won't let writers use certain characters. So for someone like a Static (who DC HATES) you are LIMITED to that one solo series.

3) FANS who only see skin color and start raising cain. What have we seen for the last few months? COMPLAINTS about minorities and all we have seen is a few promo banners.

"I can't enjoy reading (blank) knowing a black minority is in a book that I am NOT reading."
"Black Panther is a FAILURE because it doesn't matter he had a (150 issues)13 year run of solos. Gambit and his 35 solo issues (3 failed series) is a success."
"I WON'T read Young Avengers because of Prodigy is more offensive as a black male than a LGBT." Yes I have heard that comment.
"We can't have 3 minority teens in Avengers it's too dangerous! Oh cool the issue of Batman and his 11 year son just came out."
"I will boycott Marvel comics if Eli Bradley ever shows his face."
I won't even bring up the John Stewart & Static hate at DC.

4) Even if they have success someone in charge will have an issue with it. CASSANDRA CAIN anybody? The most successful female of color solo run.

5) Putting that minority in a team? Lets examine the LAST time someone tried that.

Justice League BET or Teen Titans (issues 69-87). Both had more than 3 POC and folks thought the WORLD was going to end. Even when McDuffie explained WHY his team had 4 blacks fans fought to remove him from that book that he had planned up to issue 50. Both books got new writers and both books REMOVED every POC.

6) Even if that minority has success-for many it's not GOOD enough. Somebody will WHINE and COMPLAIN that it's not good enough. You have to JUSTIFY why that minority gets anything and even when you do it's NOT good enough.

Groot can get a solo shot, toys and stuff for being in a hit movie. No one complains.
But let that be Black Panther-we gonna have issues.

Agent Coulson can get a solo series because Agents of Shield is a hit-no one complains.
Static also had a hit tv show but if he gets solo-COMPLAINTS.

What must minorities, females & LGBT have to do to be accepted as equals? And don't give that they need their own universe mess-if that happened-folks would still GO OFF.

[skyvolt2000]

And another reason why you have Lady Thor and Captain Falcon is due to ACCESS.

Falcon as the lead in Captain America assures that book gets sold in stores and available in libraries.

GO visit Barnes & Nobles or whatever book seller that you know. Go to the graphic novels.

Who don't you see?

As someone who has hunted for POC/LGBT books-I see a lack of variety.

It took Reginald Hudlin doing Black Panther to finally see his trades in stores.

I might luck out and see Miles Morales. I have yet to see Nova.

For a lot for folks that team book is the only place they can read about a minority.

[Pat Thomas]

Don't know if anybody noticed, but the OP states that he's a black guy, so stop with the racist remarks. He's just pissed and a little worried, like every single one of you
gets when you think Marvel is about to change things you like. That's a normal reaction. There's a certain security in knowing that there's something you can count on making
you happy when the rest of the world goes to ****. I still feel some anxiety when it happens to my favorite characters, but I've just learned to put it into perspective and
make the best of it. I guess if it gets to a point that I don't enjoy them because of all the changes, it will be time to quit. But I don't want that to happen, and neither do any
of you. Maybe it's time for the hypocrisy leveled against anybody who complains to stop. There's nothing wrong with a little venting and looking for like-minded people.

[skyvolt2000]

http://www.startrek.com/article/mont...unes-bookstore

This hints at why so many creators are not willing to create new guys at the big two.

Anthony Montgomery is nothing if not determined and ambitious. The actor, who played Travis Mayweather during Star Trek: Enterprise's four-year run, not only has been plowing forward in his acting career over the past decade, but he's concentrated his energies the past two years on realizing Miles Away, first as a graphic novel -- about, as the tagline says, a teenager who feels like an alien at school during the day and fights real aliens after class -- and, if everything goes according to plan, soon as a trio of animated features and then maybe even as a television series. Just the other day, Montgomery celebrated the arrival of Miles Away on iTunes Bookstore, making it available to fans in 50-plus countries worldwide.

As for the frustrations, Montgomery candidly reveals that he's spent nearly $45,000 of his own money in order to complete the book and tour around the world in support of it, to build momentum. He's engaged in animation meetings for nearly two years and, during that time, met with studios large and small and received great feedback. However, it's stopped there... at least so far.

"Nobody has gotten so inspired as to partner with me or write the check needed to begin production on the animation," Montgomery says. "Either they would want to buy Miles Away from me, effectively removing me and my team from the project, (that team also includes Marvel Agents of Shield writer Brandon Eastman)

"It's boiled down to a lot of rhetoric which all leads to the simple fact that they’ve been too fearful to take a chance on Miles Away because what I'm doing has never been done," Montgomery argues. "It's never even been attempted. I always offer examples of properties that had extraordinary success despite not being proven, including the Star Trek franchise, but the investors were either not swayed or countered that they had 'too many projects on the plate.' I got tired of hearing excuses and decided to stop the meetings altogether and get the animation done a different way."

So who wants to do all that work for someone else to take it from you for a check?

[William300]

Yea, I think I may take a break from both Marvel and DC for a while. Not because the New Marvel Universe is looking bad, I'm just burnt out on mainstream books. Maybe I'll check out some independent books.

[Marvel/DC Fan]

No a big fan of the All-New All-different but I'm not going to complain too much. I like the older characters and all but I guess if Marvel is coming out with 55-60 new books I should find a few I like.

[cyberhubbs]

They're being advertised as the next Avengers team after SW.

I'm sure Sam and Miles have been through a lot, but they are still younger,and less experienced. Younger people are more prone to mistakes, more impulsive, etc.

Hence why there are also older Avengers on the squad.

[wwise03]

I love the idea of All-New, All-Different Avengers...I think.

I haven't ready much of any Marvel or DC in 3 years (with the exception of Thor and Black Widow on the Marvel side and Batman and Grayson on the DC side). Instead, I've stuck mostly with Image and Valiant.

The reason for that is that the Marvel universe has largely become boring. It needs new stories and new story ideas, but it can't do that using old characters whose history and lore have been thoroughly explored.

From what it sounds like to me, starting October 7 (when Invincible Iron-Man releases), I will have the chance to jump into a whole new world that is unfamiliar, is not weighed down by 50 years of history, and that promises all new stories. As a non-Marvel comic book fan (love the movies though), I can't wait!