Is the Batcave Becoming Too Crowded?

[CBR News]

CSBG takes a look at how Batman has become a franchise, and asks if the law of diminishing returns is starting to apply.


Full article here.

[DrNewGod]

Good article. A key issue, IMO, is that the big companies have lost focus on the difference between a story that makes a great Elseworld (or What If...?), and those that work for an on-going.

[joybeans]

This sounds like every other "nothing ever changes!" complaint about comic books. Well, no ****. The cyclical nature of comics allows for storytellers to stray from the path every now and then, in order to try something more experimental. It seems like people keep forgetting that comic franchises are handled by many different writers, and these writers all have different takes on the character. Take away all these temporary status changes, and you're left with everyone telling the same lonely broody Batman story over and over again. All of these different Batmen and Robins and whatnot happened over a span of 75 years, let's not forget. It's not like Jean Paul Valley was Batman 6 months ago, followed by Dick Grayson 2 months later.

This writer's attitude towards Jim Gordon Batman sounds exactly what people keep complaining about Sam Wilson as Captain America or Miles Morales, minus the "minorities are stealing the white man's job!" argument.

[Nite-Wing]

This is pretty much how I feel now. Batman shouldn't need to rely on stunts or typical replacement hero stories to push the character. You don't see Superman or Wonder Woman getting replaced any where near this much and they aren't even as popular as Batman. This is the type of story that should be happening to Nightwing, Red Hood, Batgirl, Robin, etc
We have a new book coming out called We are Robin and none of those characters are replacing Damian even though that would certainly bring up the diversity a bit and bring something besides Batman getting replaced again
Ancillary characters taking over for the main hero especially with Batman has become a tired gimmick. People are sick of it and its happening too often.
Maybe if it was actual change I wouldn't mind but ultimately its the same white male in a bat costume and that's not interesting like anything Marvel is doing.

This has been happening a lot lately partly because of the explosion Batman's supporting cast has gotten in the last 20 years and partly because those characters have nothing to do while Bruce is pretty much occupying his role in Gotham and the DCU.

A common complaint is that literally every character under Batman needs to have their own role that is unique to them and not something Bruce can do for whatever reason. Its almost like DC is admitting they have nothing for the Bat fam to do besides replace another hero which is basically admitting the characters don't really have much legs in the DCU.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

It will be fine as long as Gordon-Bats is the last alternate Batman for the next 25 o 50 years. Dick had his run and is Batman in Earth-2 for as long as that title goes on, and Grayson/Nightwing still has a lot a room for growth, Jason Todd should not get a chance at being Batman in continuity(Elseworld's or/Earth... are fine) because it does not fit the character , the same goes for the rest of the Bat-family. I really have no interest in seeing anyone else take over as Batman in continuity except for Batman and killing off any of the Bat characters would just create more of a mess.

[WonderScott]

I like a busy Batcave for two reasons: 1.) alternate Batmans reinforce why Bruce Wayne will always be "the" Batman and 2.) the Gotham mythos is one of the most vast fictional settings ever created.

Whether it's a Jean-Paul Valley or Kate Kane and Bette Kane or Owlman, alternate versions of the Batman help to explore the nuances of a variety of Batman themes. There are so many different motifs and filters you can put Batman through that it's interesting to see the variables play out with characters that have similar qualities and circumstances, but play out in another way with their own motivations.

Not only is it intriguing when Batman comes into camaraderie or conflict with the characters the subsume part of his schtick into their mission and persona, but it also plays out in the wide array of villains and supporting characters in Gotham and beyond. Different characters with different personalities, different backgrounds and different motivations that share symbolic themes make for a lot potential storylines.

When I look at the Batmen, Nightwing, the Robins, the Batgirls, the Batwomen, the Huntresses, Red Hood, Spoiler, Bluebird, Batwing, Lark, Catwoman, etc., I don't see copies or derivative characters. I see a bunch of unique characters worthy of their own stories in Gotham and abroad in the greater Batman mythos (Spiral, League of Assassins, etc.)

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

This article perfectly summarized my reaction at Gordon taking the cape and the cowl. Great worjk CBR.

[Conway]

I understand the concept of what he's claiming. It can feel like they're taking away from Batman to sell other things, still for the most part these are characters that have become more than just sales gimmicks. All of them have earned a place in the Bat-Mythos (except maybe Azreal and Talon). Each has served a purpose in creating the history of Batman that we know. Sure I don't think you can keep a Bruce in his 20's with all this history intact, but that's editorial's problem. You can't really remove any one of these people without removing a great story. Dick is one of the most recognizable characters in comic history. Year One needs to have Gordon. You can't have Killing Joke without Barbra. You can't have Death in the Family without Jason (it doesn't work with Dick). The Killing Fields doesn't work without Tim. Batman 666 and Batman Inc. doesn't work without Damian. Heart of Hush wouldn't exist without Catwoman. DKR needed Carrie Kelly.

The great books need these characters therefore the Batcave needs these characters.

As for the literal question, right now the cave is empty. Bat-Gordon works out of the police station. Grayson is living in a girls school. Last I heard Jason had a space ship and a deserted island. Barbra is running around Burnside like DD in Hell's Kitchen. I think Tim is living on a yacht docked somewhere in New York. And Damian just left for his private Al Ghul island and submarine. The only people in the cave are Alfred and Damian's pets (Titus, Pennyworth, and Bat-Cow).

[t hedge coke]

It will be fine as long as Gordon-Bats is the last alternate Batman for the next 25 o 50 years.

That's a loooooooooong time.

All basic iterations of the bat-story are going to repeat at least every fifteen years. And, one of those basic iterations is seeing someone else put on the ears and cape.

[K. Jones]

Good storytelling is all that matters. At the end of the day, if you don't want to tell a Bat-Family story, don't. But don't effing ruin it for everyone else who does want some Bat-Family stories.

Just tell your damn story in isolation.

He's had a long career as a superhero crimefighter in the midst of the "Age of Superhero Crimefighters", or the "boom", the rise, whatever. Paths are gonna cross. New friends made. Old friends circle in and out. It's never gonna change. It's like Pokemon. Every time Ash goes to a new region, he kicks off with a new partner. But at some point some old friend of his from somewhere always stops by. At some point, there's always a flashback to nostalgiatown.

[Nite-Wing]

I think it goes without question none of the people who have replaced Bruce are really considered Batman in any stretch of the imagination. Its not like a Wally vs Barry or Hal vs Kyle scenario with Batman. You're not taking B+ players like all the Robins and making them A list by giving them a Bat costume.
None of them are going to be accepted as permanent replacements so when we have these changes occurring so many times in various forms with little to no reason behind it but to do it because its different its hard not to see how this isn't diluting the Batman brand.
At this point you can't even consider it original because you've had azrael, then you had dick,then you had dick again, then you have Batman Beyond, etc etc.

Its a tired gimmick which I believe the article hit spot on, its not about new ideas this just rehashing the same story

[Conway]

I think it goes without question none of the people who have replaced Bruce are really considered Batman in any stretch of the imagination. Its not like a Wally vs Barry or Hal vs Kyle scenario with Batman. You're not taking B+ players like all the Robins and making them A list by giving them a Bat costume.
None of them are going to be accepted as permanent replacements so when we have these changes occurring so many times in various forms with little to no reason behind it but to do it because its different its hard not to see how this isn't diluting the Batman brand.
At this point you can't even consider it original because you've had azrael, then you had dick,then you had dick again, then you have Batman Beyond, etc etc.

Its a tired gimmick which I believe the article hit spot on, its not about new ideas this just rehashing the same story

Only to an extent. Sure it's not new and it can never be permanent, but it's unavoidable too. I understand why the author is sick of this, but that doesn't change the fact that it will happen again and again.

Batman is human he is fallible and he is mortal. There will be times when the story mandates that he's broken or even dead. But because he's human there is a human need to fill his boots. There can be no other Superman, but there can always be another Arrow. Wally and Hal (or Jay and Alan) are different because their powers are linked to a source. Much like Billy Batson isn't the first Shazam!, there will always be new speedsters and ring wielders. Batman's only "power" though is the cowl. If another human thinks they can help by putting on the ears then they will it's human nature.

Any author that avoids this just because it's been done before would just be replaced by someone that has no problem taking orders.

[DrNewGod]

All basic iterations of the bat-story are going to repeat at least every fifteen years. And, one of those basic iterations is seeing someone else put on the ears and cape.

Depressingly correct.

[Badou]

I do agree that Gordon becoming Batman is very unfitting of his character. He is the guy that is above Batman in how he wants to keep within the law despite everything that is going on around him. He doesn't need to be Batman for what he wants to accomplish, but Synder loves the character and wants to use him more. So we'll see where it all goes. It's all going to look very nice at least.

Though I do sort of disagree with the notion that Bruce makes Batman what he is. It's the suit and that setting that defines Batman. It is why it is so easy to put someone else in that role because it is so easy to take Bruce out of it. Bruce on his own isn't a very strong character and is completely dwarfed by the entity that is Batman. It isn't like how Superman/Clark, Flash/Barry, Wonder Woman/Diana and other big heroes are a extension of who they are out of the costume. Batman is a completely other entity to Bruce and is able to survive with or without him.

[The World]

Another bad article by CBR.

Look. Some of these substitute-Batman stories are good and some of them are awful but the problem with all of them is the same– they come with an expiration date. We know Bruce Wayne will return. We know this. Each time DC does a “there’s a new Batman in town, everything’s different” storyline, it looks more desperate and fans take it less seriously, especially those stories that use the apparent death of Bruce Wayne as a jumping-off point. The reader response to that is NOT “oh my God, how can there be a world without Batman? Who will save Gotham City now?” It’s, “Been there done that, there’s no way you are serious about this, it’s comics, he’ll be back.” The more DC flails around swearing no they really mean it this time, the more readers become convinced it’s another dumb stunt.

Literally the issue that Gordon takes up the cowl Bruce was proven to be alive. Didn't either Snyder or Cap also say he was coming back for that matter has anyone at DC tried to claim that Bruce was going to be gone for good. Why doesn't CBR make their author understand the material they're criticizing. This is bush league, it's crazy how little he seems to understand about something that made him see red. And this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the problems with this mess.

Funny thing is I feel like Dick!Bats sort of proved you could drop Bruce but keep Batman and it could all work out. This article is little more than the rantings of Bruce Wayne fan who's feelings are hurt.

I do agree that Gordon becoming Batman is very unfitting of his character. He is the guy that is above Batman in how he wants to keep within the law despite everything that is going on around him. He doesn't need to be Batman for what he wants to accomplish, but Synder loves the character and wants to use him more. So we'll see where it all goes. It's all going to look very nice at least.

He's still within the law. He's doing all this as a cop, theres flashing police lights on the suit and everything. He and the fellow police officers even salute one another in Batman #41.