When do you think her main title will be relaunched or reworked?

[xMatt]

What about the approach they're taking with Batgirl? Could that be applied to Wonder Woman? A complete shift in tone, location, new supporting cast and villains, mission statement, art style, creative team, with next to no mention of previous continuity...

[Outside_85]

The thing is, most of your list of deviant acts were committed by the villains(i.e. Nazis, Hercules, etc.).
Also - I don't count spanking as sexual assault. Many parents still spank their children. Do you consider that to be sexual assault?

Hmm, lets file them:
- Impaling Others
Diana; stabbed Strife who had just threatened Zola, and introduced the First Born and Ares to the pointed end of a spear
The Minotaur impaled Orion
First Born stabbed Hermes in the chest and Diana in the flank
- Sexual Assault
Orion><Diana
- Mass Murder (removed the last bit because it's unique)
Amazons
First Born + Army
Bug people
- Beastiality
First Born
- Cannibalism
Cassandra
- Adultery
Zeus/a lot of women: I am not so sure why this is so upsetting it needs to appear on this list with actual horrific crimes.

As far as I can see here, most of the issues here were also conducted by the villains alone.

Spanking your kids is in many/most places in the western world considered child abuse. And yes, if you yank someone unwilling off the street, bend them over your knees and give their rear a flat one; that is sexual assault, similar infact to Orion slapping Diana's bottom.

[Dr. Poison]

Hmm, lets file them:
- Impaling Others
Diana; stabbed Strife who had just threatened Zola, and introduced the First Born and Ares to the pointed end of a spear
The Minotaur impaled Orion
First Born stabbed Hermes in the chest and Diana in the flank
- Sexual Assault
Orion><Diana
- Mass Murder (removed the last bit because it's unique)
Amazons
First Born + Army
Bug people
- Beastiality
First Born
- Cannibalism
Cassandra
- Adultery
Zeus/a lot of women: I am not so sure why this is so upsetting it needs to appear on this list with actual horrific crimes.

As far as I can see here, most of the issues here were also conducted by the villains alone.

Spanking your kids is in many/most places in the western world considered child abuse. And yes, if you yank someone unwilling off the street, bend them over your knees and give their rear a flat one; that is sexual assault, similar infact to Orion slapping Diana's bottom.

The thing is though, the Amazons and Hippolyta(party to that adulterous affair) used to be considered heroes or at least on the side of good by many of us. Now those Amazons that committed mass murder(and baby-trading too btw) are no better than the Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, or Giganta as far as their moral compass goes.

[Outside_85]

The thing is though, the Amazons and Hippolyta(party to that adulterous affair) used to be considered heroes or at least on the side of good by many of us.
Now those Amazons that committed mass murder(and baby-trading too btw) are no better than the Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, or Giganta as far as their moral compass goes.

I'm interested in knowing why the affair marks Hippolyta as evil?

I'd be perfectly willing to argue that the Amazons are still on the side of good, if we could get somekind of confirmation on why they are immortal and what they are otherwise doing on Paradise, but they have a dark side to them.
Regarding their moral compass, I still assume it's the fewest of the Amazons who took any joy in sending their sons away, to Hephaestus or over a cliff. Which is unlike the supervillains that often take joy in other people's misery.

[Darius]

why would batwoman be ther? the book became a rape fest. storm is hardly a a success on sales or critical acclaim. harley quinn maybe is not hitting this demo despite sales? Catwoman lost a lot of popularity with ann nocenti, hard to recover from it;

I think the pictures are very accurate of what women are reading, with majority of the books being from independent publishers like Image. These books are frequently on NY times best sellers.

Saga is bizarre, but it is mostly a love story and a family fighting to survive in a cruel world. also hot men

so how to make the book popular with the young women demo?


I think that first is better think about WW basic supporting cast, before going for the villains. Johns recipe is start at the basic core and expand.

I'm asking where these other titles are because the rack is titled "fangirl favorites" but is missing several prominent female driven comics. The point being one comic rack with a handful of comics is in no way indicative of an overarching statement about what women comic readers are buying.

[Dr. Poison]

I'm interested in knowing why the affair marks Hippolyta as evil?

I'd be perfectly willing to argue that the Amazons are still on the side of good, if we could get somekind of confirmation on why they are immortal and what they are otherwise doing on Paradise, but they have a dark side to them.
Regarding their moral compass, I still assume it's the fewest of the Amazons who took any joy in sending their sons away, to Hephaestus or over a cliff. Which is unlike the supervillains that often take joy in other people's misery.

Why do I consider Hippolyta to have a south-pointing moral compass? Because she knowing helped Zeus cheat on her patron goddess Hera. She should have respected Hera more than that but no, she decided to put her own desires before Hera's sacred union with her husband. That is betrayal in the utmost form. Then, Hippolyta lied about the true nature of Diana's birth for decades. Finally, Hippolyta never admitted to her trespass until Hera busted her. This is very selfish and deceptive IMO along the lines of someone like Lex Luthor.

As for the Amazons, I'm only referring to those that participated in the raids/murders of the sailors and the killing of the male Amazons. While they may or may not have enjoyed killing those men, they still did it to serve their own needs kind of like why Deathstroke kills(to make money to support himself).

[Silvanus]

The thing is, most of your list of deviant acts were committed by the villains(i.e. Nazis, Hercules, etc.). Also - I don't count spanking as sexual assault. Many parents still spank their children. Do you consider that to be sexual assault?

I don't--but do I consider an involuntary spanking of a grown woman, like Wonder Woman's Marston committed, sexual assault? Maybe. Surely I would, if I were going to apply an expansive definition, as you do with Azz's Wonder Woman.

Your list included bestiality and cannibalism. Can you tell me which heroes committed cannibalism and bestiality in Azz's run?

My list also included the husband hunts, Diana' dumping of planes on their flight crews and throwing off a general into a vengeful mob and throwing molten metal (which would surely be lethal) on enemy agent and turning other enemies' poison gas against them, and Diana's and her sisters' bondage fetishism (though I don't honestly want to be judgmental about that last item--anymore than I would want to be overly judgmental about one act of adultery in a very different culture over the course of thousands of years.)

Do you find stabbing Strife's immortal hand more objectionable that killing Japanese ground crews?

[Outside_85]

Why do I consider Hippolyta to have a south-pointing moral compass? Because she knowing helped Zeus cheat on her patron goddess Hera.
She should have respected Hera more than that but no, she decided to put her own desires before Hera's sacred union with her husband. That is betrayal in the utmost form. Then, Hippolyta lied about the true nature of Diana's birth for decades. Finally, Hippolyta never admitted to her trespass until Hera busted her. This is very selfish and deceptive IMO along the lines of someone like Lex Luthor.

As a matter of fair occasion, when has Hera ever been depicted as a significant deity to the Amazons? Hera was the one to proclaim the Amazons as sacred to her, but thats about as close as we've ever been to any positive Hera/Amazons interaction.
Let me just postulate that Hera's marriage may not mean as much to anyone, not even herself because she admitted she had longed for a time when she could be alone with Olympus. Add to this, we dont know what the Amazons view is on committed relationships, perhaps they only recognize those between themselves? And maybe they only form temporary relationships? As of yet we dont know.
Regarding lying to Diana... well first of all, Hippolyta lied Artemis into her grave, so it's not exactly a new character trait. Secondly, she lied to keep Hera from learning about it, because she knew both she and Diana would be killed not long after by an extremely vindictive goddess.
It's not like Luthor, he lies to save and serve himself. Hippolyta does it for the sake and safety of Diana, like I imagine most mothers would.

As for the Amazons, I'm only referring to those that participated in the raids/murders of the sailors and the killing of the male Amazons. While they may or may not have enjoyed killing those men, they still did it to serve their own needs kind of like why Deathstroke kills(to make money to support himself).

Deathstroke is a mix of getting paid well for something he is very good at and gets a huge amount of kicks out of.
The Amazons, I admit there might be some that enjoy killing men (I imagine most are at Hephaestus now), but the rest I imagine only do so because it is a necessary evil they have to perform, either to maintain their way of life or fulfill the commandments made by the gods.

Like we have Hessia, who left the island and is now apparently aging, so perhaps there is a blessing on Paradise, one that may only endure if men are mostly kept off the island.

[Awonder]

What about the approach they're taking with Batgirl? Could that be applied to Wonder Woman? A complete shift in tone, location, new supporting cast and villains, mission statement, art style, creative team, with next to no mention of previous continuity...

And it wouldn't really be that hard, just moving away from Olympus and Amazon drama, putting her in the real world more, makes for a natural shift.

[numberthirty]

Also - I don't count spanking as sexual assault. Many parents still spank their children. Do you consider that to be sexual assault?

While I can't believe I'm going to give this a serious answer, it obviously depends on the context said spanking is happening in. It's not that hard to come up with a spanking that is "bad".

[numberthirty]

she decided to put her own desires before Hera's sacred union with her husband. That is betrayal in the utmost form.

Cassandra, Lennox, and Milan are each living proof that you might want to look for a different adjective. It obviously hasn't been "sacred" for a really long time.

[Dr. Poison]

I don't--but do I consider an involuntary spanking of a grown woman, like Wonder Woman's Marston committed, sexual assault? Maybe. Surely I would, if I were going to apply an expansive definition, as you do with Azz's Wonder Woman.

Your list included bestiality and cannibalism. Can you tell me which heroes committed cannibalism and bestiality in Azz's run?

My list also included the husband hunts, Diana' dumping of planes on their flight crews and throwing off a general into a vengeful mob and throwing molten metal (which would surely be lethal) on enemy agent and turning other enemies' poison gas against them, and Diana's and her sisters' bondage fetishism (though I don't honestly want to be judgmental about that last item--anymore than I would want to be overly judgmental about one act of adultery in a very different culture over the course of thousands of years.)

Do you find stabbing Strife's immortal hand more objectionable that killing Japanese ground crews?

This is the first I've heard of most of the things you listed beyond those innocent husband hunts in Marston's run. Marston's own granddaughter(Christie) said those hunts were nothing more than a playful game with no murder or baby-trading involved like in Azz's sex-raids. The bondage scenes were kind of progressive for their time but from what I know, no actual sex was shown or even mentioned within those scenes. As for the rest of the things you listed from Marston's run, I don't have any knowledge of most of those things happening so I'm not really at liberty to comment on them.

[Dr. Poison]

Cassandra, Lennox, and Milan are each living proof that you might want to look for a different adjective. It obviously hasn't been "sacred" for a really long time.

You're probably right regarding Zeus' feeling on his union with Hera but would Hera really be going after all of those mothers and children if she didn't consider her union with Zeus to be sacred? I think not.

[numberthirty]

The bondage scenes were kind of progressive for their time but from what I know, no actual sex was shown or even mentioned within those scenes. As for the rest of the things you listed from Marston's run, I don't have any knowledge of most of those things happening so I'm not really at liberty to comment on them.

They were not shown or mentioned because of the time they were being put on a page in. You get away with what you can.

[numberthirty]

You're probably right regarding Zeus' feeling on his union with Hera but would Hera really be going after all of those mothers and children if she didn't consider her union with Zeus to be sacred? I think not.

Someone lying to themselves doesn't mean I have to entertain their nonsense. It had not been sacred for decades at the point Hera comes along.