Where Did The New 52 Wonder Woman Learn Her Values/Behavior From?

[Ascended]

well Hipollyta is thousands of years old, she should know better to not get involved with Zeus. that was really dumb from her part.

maybe hipollyta just slept with some men but never went to raids

Is Hippolyta immortal? I seem to recall someone saying she was used in Demon Knights (I didnt read it), but was it actually the same person, or just someone with the same name?

I also dont see any merit in the "she should know better" argument. She slept with a married man. Lots of women do it every day. Doesnt make it right, doesnt condone their actions, but I myself wont condemn a person because of such a common mistake. The heart wants what the heart wants, after all.

Regardless, the Amazons as a people are mortal now, so babies had to come from somewhere. Im not defending the raids, dont get me wrong, it was a bad call on Azzarello's part. But it still answered the question. And since that story was finished with a clear-cut pathway for Diana to change those horrific traditions, its something Im willing to roll with. It'd be nice to say that Diana had a quantifiable, positive impact on the Amazons.

[Ascended]

Because even though Azz isn't writing the book, the concepts he introduced are still being used.

Also, in the myths Zeus either used mind control on women or disguised himself. So far, Hippolyta is the only person to sleep with Zeus knowing full well what he was and what the consequences would be. Combine this with her probably participating in the raids (how else would she know she was infertile?) and you get a far less sympathetic picture of her and the Amazons as opposed top their previous versions.

And how often are the raids actually mentioned? How often do they have any impact on the story being told at all? I get that its something floating around in all our heads; but for the stories being told now, is it at all important? Its a lot like Batman's father being a doctor. Once in a while Thomas Wayne's expertise as a doctor is mentioned or becomes relevant to the plot, but 90% of the time its a non-issue and is completely ignored.

I agree that the raids are a problem and steps need to be taken to move the Amazons away from that sort of primitive methodology. But wiping history isnt going to fix the problem, its just going to cause more damage and Diana has suffered from that sort of mistreatment enough. Instead of rewinding in a flawed and pointless attempt to course-correct, it'd be better to move forward and use what is established to build a better, stronger foundation.

[Tayswift]

Is Hippolyta immortal? I seem to recall someone saying she was used in Demon Knights (I didnt read it), but was it actually the same person, or just someone with the same name?

I also dont see any merit in the "she should know better" argument. She slept with a married man. Lots of women do it every day. Doesnt make it right, doesnt condone their actions, but I myself wont condemn a person because of such a common mistake. The heart wants what the heart wants, after all.

Regardless, the Amazons as a people are mortal now, so babies had to come from somewhere. Im not defending the raids, dont get me wrong, it was a bad call on Azzarello's part. But it still answered the question. And since that story was finished with a clear-cut pathway for Diana to change those horrific traditions, its something Im willing to roll with. It'd be nice to say that Diana had a quantifiable, positive impact on the Amazons.

Hippolyta is immortal she was on demon knights and the annual confirmed that she is thousand of years old.

many women sleep with married men, but they aren't thousands of years old and the men aren't a serial rapist/father of hundreds (never took care of them). It is wrong anyway, far from being a common mistake give the context.

Amazons aren't mortal, they can get killed, but they won't age, example exoristos and hippolyta. The babies weren't explained at all, if they are immotal save for killing in battle (very few battles would happen in a magic isolated island). Amazons shouldn't need a lesson like this from Diana to start

[Ascended]

Hippolyta is immortal she was on demon knights and the annual confirmed that she is thousand of years old.

many women sleep with married men, but they aren't thousands of years old and the men aren't a serial rapist/father of hundreds (never took care of them). It is wrong anyway, far from being a common mistake give the context.

Amazons aren't mortal, they can get killed, but they won't age, example exoristos and hippolyta. The babies weren't explained at all, if they are immotal save for killing in battle (very few battles would happen in a magic isolated island). Amazons shouldn't need a lesson like this from Diana to start

Well, if Im wrong about the aging thing, I will absolutely stand corrected, but I thought that was no longer the case in current continuity? Could anyone provide scans where it says the Amazons dont age? Because if that is the case, then the raids are pointless. Even with things like disease and accidents and the occasional god-driven rage-induced serial mass killing spree, there'd be no reason for new Amazons to be born in the sort of numbers the raids imply.

If this came from Demon Knights however, I suspect it can be ignored. I dont get the feeling that Azzarello was overly forthcoming about his plot details. Hippolyta I can see. She's their queen and was a part of the original myths these stories are inspired by. But the rank and file? Pretty sure they were just "regular" people now?

[Outside_85]

Well, if Im wrong about the aging thing, I will absolutely stand corrected, but I thought that was no longer the case in current continuity? Could anyone provide scans where it says the Amazons dont age? Because if that is the case, then the raids are pointless. Even with things like disease and accidents and the occasional god-driven rage-induced serial mass killing spree, there'd be no reason for new Amazons to be born in the sort of numbers the raids imply.

If this came from Demon Knights however, I suspect it can be ignored. I dont get the feeling that Azzarello was overly forthcoming about his plot details. Hippolyta I can see. She's their queen and was a part of the original myths these stories are inspired by. But the rank and file? Pretty sure they were just "regular" people now?

I don't think there is a scan outright stating that the Amazons don't age, but it has been heavily implied a number of times now:
-The funeral speech by the priestess in issue #3
-Demon Knights, where they meet Hippolyta, the same one that would be Diana's mother.
-Finch's WW annual, the backup story is set in ancient Greece where Hippolyta is young and friends with Denioe (the Crone). Hippolyta's mother is poisoned by Spartans and Deinoe is turned into a old crone by a magical blade.

Regarding the necessity of the raids, I think that kinda depends on how many Amazons actually go out on them. Like we don't know if it's a chosen few or everyone who wants a go. Aside that, we dont know how often they are called on to defend Dooms (flimsy) Door or have to venture out and subdue something before putting it in that underwater prison from Batwoman.

[Agent Z]

And how often are the raids actually mentioned? How often do they have any impact on the story being told at all? I get that its something floating around in all our heads; but for the stories being told now, is it at all important? Its a lot like Batman's father being a doctor. Once in a while Thomas Wayne's expertise as a doctor is mentioned or becomes relevant to the plot, but 90% of the time its a non-issue and is completely ignored.

I agree that the raids are a problem and steps need to be taken to move the Amazons away from that sort of primitive methodology. But wiping history isnt going to fix the problem, its just going to cause more damage and Diana has suffered from that sort of mistreatment enough. Instead of rewinding in a flawed and pointless attempt to course-correct, it'd be better to move forward and use what is established to build a better, stronger foundation.

It's not just the raids it's, it's how Azzarello wrote the Amazons that has had an overall impact in how they've been portrayed in and out of the WW books. In Demon Knights we had an Amazon gleefully talking about how her people castrated men for fun. The Batman/Wonder Woman crossover showed Aleka acting hostile towards Bruce as well as an account by a SPanisg priest of the raids. Their portrayal by Finch is loathsome but it is not happening in a vacuum and has not been done without precedent.

[Darius]

It's not just the raids it's, it's how Azzarello wrote the Amazons that has had an overall impact in how they've been portrayed in and out of the WW books. In Demon Knights we had an Amazon gleefully talking about how her people castrated men for fun. The Batman/Wonder Woman crossover showed Aleka acting hostile towards Bruce as well as an account by a SPanisg priest of the raids. Their portrayal by Finch is loathsome but it is not happening in a vacuum and has not been done without precedent.

Note that not a single example you brought up in this post was actually written by Azzarello. He made too little use of the Amazon's IMO, and what he did show us was a dark and violent society, but he also reverted them to snakes for most of the run. The Finch's have used them and made them far worse than Azzarello ever did.

[Hawk80]

Note that not a single example you brought up in this post was actually written by Azzarello. He made too little use of the Amazon's IMO, and what he did show us was a dark and violent society, but he also reverted them to snakes for most of the run. The Finch's have used them and made them far worse than Azzarello ever did.

Still can't see the difference...

Amazons are man haters, man killers and ok with killing their male offspring under the pen of both Azz and Finch.

[Darius]

Still can't see the difference...

Amazons are man haters, man killers and ok with killing their male offspring under the pen of both Azz and Finch.

No one is denying that ... I just find it interesting that Azzarello "gets the blame" but the major examples being used were all from other writers.

[Agent Z]

No one is denying that ... I just find it interesting that Azzarello "gets the blame" but the major examples being used were all from other writers.

We're not letting the other writers off the hook. Azzarello just gets the blame a bit more cause he set the precedent and the others are just following his example.

[Darius]

We're not letting the other writers off the hook. Azzarello just gets the blame a bit more cause he set the precedent and the others are just following his example.

I would disagree with that statement. Azzarello had barely written a word about the Amazons when Exo was featuring in Demon Knights, the Finch's have backtracked on the direction Azzarello was going when they took over. Johns made Diana far more violent than Azzarello ever did. I don't think you can effectively argue that one writer whose story was pretty self contained did more than sketch out an outline for a more militant society of women. At least his story had reasons for them to be horrible.

[Dr. Poison]

I would disagree with that statement. Azzarello had barely written a word about the Amazons when Exo was featuring in Demon Knights, the Finch's have backtracked on the direction Azzarello was going when they took over. Johns made Diana far more violent than Azzarello ever did. I don't think you can effectively argue that one writer whose story was pretty self contained did more than sketch out an outline for a more militant society of women. At least his story had reasons for them to be horrible.

Then why are so many tenured writers(not including Meredith) going down this route with the Amazons? Azzarello set a precedent of man-killing, baby-trading sex-pirates and what the writers of Demon Knights, Batman & Robin(Wonder Woman), and Justice League wrote falls directly in line with Azzarello's set up. If this was just Meredith doing this I could understand your POV but Johns and Tomasi have a lot of experience with writing(especially for DC) so I fail to see how they and the other writers involved here are all misguided and Azzarello is the only one who writes the Amazons and Diana correctly.

[Awonder]

Perhaps there are some traits and values she was taught and some traits and values she came up with on her own.

For example, she appears to have been taught to be strong and self-reliant. She says so when she visits stong Hippolyta, and I think it's shown in the opening pages of Wonder Woman 0, when Wonder Woman completes her quest.

She also could have have learned loyalty from the Amazons, who are notably loyal to their queen in issue 4. (ETA--Now that I've seen your response to Darius, I want to add that loyalty is still loyalty when it's acted on unwisely. Diana could have made the Amazons' loyalty her own, while not necessarily accepting whatever foolhardiness or recklessness they would have taught her.) I think she was also taught the value of "loving submission," or "faith in the strength of another" (an idea Diana emphasizes in the final issue). Artemis, it seems to me, implies that this was an Amazon idea. And Diana actually implies that they've had too much faith in each others' strength to focus on their imperfections and how to improve. So I think she was taught the basic idea of "loving submission," but she learned on her own to moderate it and apply it in the best way.

The value of sparing a fallen adversary seems to me to be something she partly learns from Hippolyta and partly learns through her interactions with Ares and the Minotaur. Hippolyta yells at her for continuing to hit Aleka when she was down, even though Hippolyta had reason to be angry at Aleka, for disobediently trying to hurt her daughter. Diana, at least, saw some reason to speculate on whether her mercy could be her tribute to her mother.

I think Hippolyta taught her to be kind and merciful to other Amazons--who were, after all, the only people she saw on a day-to-say basis while she was living on the island. What she and the other Amazons apparently didn't teach her--at least, not on purpose--was to be kind and merciful to outsiders. I say "not on purpose" because I think she learned to empathize with outsiders by feeling like an outsider, because some of her young peers teased her about being "clay."

Don't most of us learn some of our values by seeing the wisdom in what our family members try to teach us, and other values by seeing the limitations in their teachings and their ways?

*golfclap* I sincerely think this is one of your stronger arguments. But you still seem to significantly downplay this:

Ares is the one who taught her these value. He was not actively trying to teach her but he unknowingly taught Diana these values. After defeating Diana in combat he spared her life, Diana did the same to Minotaur. Ares also stopped her from killing Artemis.

What better way to truly learn the value of mercy than to be on the receiving end of mercy?

[Ascended]

Then why are so many tenured writers(not including Meredith) going down this route with the Amazons? Azzarello set a precedent of man-killing, baby-trading sex-pirates and what the writers of Demon Knights, Batman & Robin(Wonder Woman), and Justice League wrote falls directly in line with Azzarello's set up. If this was just Meredith doing this I could understand your POV but Johns and Tomasi have a lot of experience with writing(especially for DC) so I fail to see how they and the other writers involved here are all misguided and Azzarello is the only one who writes the Amazons and Diana correctly.

I think what Darius is saying (correct me if Im wrong) is that other writers are too focused on these new, negative aspects of Azzarello's Amazons and are forgetting to provide any kind of balance. They'll mention the raids or write an Amazon as a blood-thirsty child killer, but they don't mention how they stood shoulder to shoulder with their brothers against a common foe, or stood ready to attack their own goddess in order to protect their Queen, which is brave beyond being stupid, suicidal, and exemplifies a level of honor and loyalty you rarely find.

Azzarello put some pretty serious blemishes on the Amazons, no doubt. And no one is saying otherwise. But he also showcased some of their best qualities too. He wrote them as a complex and morally gray culture, yes, but not as two-dimensional "villains" like some other writers are to various degrees.

As for tenure, that's immaterial. A long-standing and talented writer can still fail to properly write characters he just doesnt "get". Its clear that Johns has struggled with Diana's character and that goes back to before Azzarello. Azz doesnt deserve the blame because Diana escapes Johns' ability to write.

[Awonder]

I think what Darius is saying (correct me if Im wrong) is that other writers are too focused on these new, negative aspects of Azzarello's Amazons and are forgetting to provide any kind of balance. They'll mention the raids or write an Amazon as a blood-thirsty child killer, but they don't mention how they stood shoulder to shoulder with their brothers against a common foe, or stood ready to attack their own goddess in order to protect their Queen, which is brave beyond being stupid, suicidal, and exemplifies a level of honor and loyalty you rarely find.

Azzarello put some pretty serious blemishes on the Amazons, no doubt. And no one is saying otherwise. But he also showcased some of their best qualities too. He wrote them as a complex and morally gray culture, yes, but not as two-dimensional "villains" like some other writers are to various degrees.

As for tenure, that's immaterial. A long-standing and talented writer can still fail to properly write characters he just doesnt "get". Its clear that Johns has struggled with Diana's character and that goes back to before Azzarello. Azz doesnt deserve the blame because Diana escapes Johns' ability to write.

Azzarello may not be to blame that Johns was writing Diana poorly long before Azzarello even began writing WW, but none of the authors that gave used the sex pirate version of the Amzons came up with that independently - they built on the foundation laid by Azzarello. That is the impression he wanted to leave. He wanted "dirt" and it shows. It still lingers because he did not put greater effort into washing it away and/or building a better impression.

He gave them some complexity beyond that, but not much. They fight by their brothers only because they were ordered to and they are being attacked and could use all the help they can get. The men choose to come to the aid of the women, not the other way around. It really pales in comparison to Simone's Amazons that choose to risk their lives to go help the male Amazons after the monsters had stopped attacking Paradise Island.

And, it was Johns in JL, not Azzarello, that has been giving more context and background to the Amazons. Batwoman and SM/WW gave us active Amazons in guarding monsters and Doom's Doorway. SM/WW and Demon Knights gave us Hessia and Ex, now atypical Amazons; that wasn't Azzarello.

I have a hard time believing that a writer as skilled and experienced as Azzarello couldn't have built a better depiction and legacy of the Aamazons had he wanted to.