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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Excuse me?

    Attachment 23947

    You know, him and Wanda had almost the exact same amount of time with the magic-kids. When they got reincarnated, Billy and Tommy only really bothered to find Wanda, which bothered me but it made sense I guess. Despite them having no actual genetic connection, but their 'souls' are connected. And to me, I thought that Wanda probably warped the souls to such an extent to reflect both her and Vision, as she wanted.

    And Vision, understandably, was not in the easy position of whether to regard the reincarnated boys as his own or not. Because do you know the answer to that question because I don't think anyone does. But you know what, he did put in initiative in the end to connect with Billy.

    Attachment 23949

    And back to the issue at hand. I would squee with the best of them if the feeling between them was mutual, but Remender I feel deliberately showed Vision getting friendzoned to make it clear that the feelings are one-sided. And frankly I like Vision as himself too much now to really like anything about this.

    He had a revenge-fuck with Eve because he was being the bitterest android about Wanda early in the issue. That was clearly what that was.

    And then he chooses to abandon ship (literally) because goddamit he can't quit Wanda.

    And now here we are again. Back to this hopeless song and dance. Again.

    You know any other character, any decidedly non-robotic and non-rebuildable character, if we read them in stories that had them keep coming back to an ex who has not once, but several times killed them directly/indirectly, and despite all said-power of said-ex not once has helped to heal and/or restore them, we would be saying "Wow, that's obviously an abusive and hopeless relationship, that character is much better of without them and far away from them for their own health and safety."

    It stopped being cute for Vision to do this years ago. At least prior to Disassembled it was just typical ex problems, but after that? After his outburst in Avengers vs X-Men? Reverse the genders and what does it sound like?

    I can't cheer at this. I like Vision too much now as a standalone character. This is just bad for him, I can't see this in any other way. It's not healthy, and puts me off on them getting back together more than when this series started, how the fuck did that happen!?

    Edit: No joke, one of the first things I thought when I figured MCU was going with Vision and Wanda getting together was "Oh thank gawd, Wanda can't break you this time." Because him being made of stronger stuff, and Wanda being slightly depowered. I shouldn't have to worry about one person in a relationship being physically ripped apart by the other, at all!
    Hahahaha. It's a running joke around here that Vision is an absentee father. Any time Billy and Tommy are in any sort of trouble, it's always Wanda shown stepping in to help. Vision has had that sole interraction with Billy that we saw in the Assembled annual. We know he cares just as much, it's just never seen on panel.

    And...the friendzone is a fine place to be. That's often where mature relationships end up, and that's awesome.

    I don't need to see Vision and Wanda 'together' again. There are reams of those stories already (and it was an amazing era!). I do need to seem them be friends though. They were too close for the enmity between them to be so bitter, despite what went down during Dissassembled.

    This was, really, the perfect place to see them both at the end of the world. I couldn't possibly have asked for anything more.
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  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    You know, him and Wanda had almost the exact same amount of time with the magic-kids. When they got reincarnated, Billy and Tommy only really bothered to find Wanda, which bothered me but it made sense I guess. Despite them having no actual genetic connection, but their 'souls' are connected. And to me, I thought that Wanda probably warped the souls to such an extent to reflect both her and Vision, as she wanted.

    And Vision, understandably, was not in the easy position of whether to regard the reincarnated boys as his own or not. Because do you know the answer to that question because I don't think anyone does. But you know what, he did put in initiative in the end to connect with Billy.
    I understand why Billy and Tommy feel that Wanda is more their real parent than Vision. Regardless of genetic connection, she created and shaped them, and that's enough to consider her their mother.

    Vision, on the other hand... he has no genes, so no genetic connection. No mystical connection, either, because he didn't help Wanda create them. And he didn't raise them. He's basically Wanda's lovebot and little more.

    Still, I think they could develop a healthy relationship. Tommy, Billy, Victor Mancha, they are all nice people. I would like Pymtron to join them when he comes back.
    Last edited by Habis; 06-27-2015 at 06:56 AM.

  3. #78
    Full sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Vision, on the other hand... he has no genes, so no genetic connection. No mystical connection, either, because he didn't help Wanda create them. And he didn't raise them. He's basically Wanda's lovebot and little more.
    This is actually completely untrue. All of it.

    Vision was an intricate part of the spell that created them. It wouldn't have happened were he not present in that moment, embracing Wanda.

    In the womb, Tommy (named after his grandfather on Vision's side of the family, btw) expressed a genetic imperviousness to any electronic observation, a trait he'd acquired from his father.

    Vision has cells, genes and fleshy tissue. He's not an automation, but a synthetic human.

    Viz was just as involved in raising them as she. They were inseprable at the time, living as a regular family in thier own little house (even maintaining a seperate cottage when they re-joined the Avengers on the West Coast). They were hands on, devoted parents.
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  4. #79
    Mighty Member Byakko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    I understand why Billy and Tommy feel that Wanda is more their real parent than Vision. Regardless of genetic connection, she created and shaped them, and that's enough to consider her their mother.

    Vision, on the other hand... he has no genes, so no genetic connection. No mystical connection, either, because he didn't help Wanda create them. And he didn't raise them. He's basically Wanda's lovebot and little more.

    Still, I think they could develop a healthy relationship. Tommy, Billy, Victor Mancha, they are all nice people. I would like Pymtron to join them when he comes back.
    Right I know the previous iteration of the twins, they...kind of budded off her I guess...

    But then when they reincarnated, they literally do not have her genes anymore. They have her...soul-genes...I guess...somehow...

    And in her own words, Wanda did say she wanted the kids to be 'just as much (hers) as Vision's' and considering she warps reality...she somehow did it.

    And wow, he 'didn't raise them', you are seriously taking that tact:

    WCAAnn1_VSW.jpg

    babydan.jpg

    You really think bloodties matter that much in a parent, uh? I wonder how people who adopt or foster children feel when they're regarded like that, hm?

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Right I know the previous iteration of the twins, they...kind of budded off her I guess...

    But then when they reincarnated, they literally do not have her genes anymore. They have her...soul-genes...I guess...somehow...

    And in her own words, Wanda did say she wanted the kids to be 'just as much (hers) as Vision's' and considering she warps reality...she somehow did it.

    And wow, he 'didn't raise them', you are seriously taking that tact:

    WCAAnn1_VSW.jpg

    babydan.jpg

    You really think bloodties matter that much in a parent, uh? I wonder how people who adopt or foster children feel when they're regarded like that, hm?
    They were taken from Wanda and Vision while still being babies, so they didn't raise them.

    They have reincarnated, so they probably don't have either Wanda's or Vision's genes...but anyways, Vision's cells are made of a programmable self-replicating synthetic polymere, they aren't real cells, and they don't have DNA. Vision has been recently retconned as being made of nanomachines, but I'm not sure if that's still true or it has been forgotten by current writers.

    Not sure about Vision participation in the babies' mystical conception. All I remember is Agatha Harkness telling Wanda to use the wild magic taken from the witches and warlocks of Salem to cast the spell that impregnated her. As far as I can remember, Vision did nothing.
    Last edited by Habis; 06-27-2015 at 11:13 AM.

  6. #81
    Mighty Member Byakko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    They were taken from Wanda and Vision while still being babies, so they didn't raise them.

    They have reincarnated, so they probably don't have either Wanda's or Vision's genes...but anyways, Vision's cells are made of a programmable self-replicating synthetic polymere, they aren't real cells, and they don't have DNA. Vision has been recently retconned as being made of nanomachines, but I'm not sure if that's still true or it has been forgotten by current writers.

    Not sure about Vision participation in the babies' mystical conception. All I remember is Agatha Harkness telling Wanda to use the wild magic taken from the witches and warlocks to cast the spell that impregnated her. As far as I can remember, Vision did nothing.
    Now you're saying they both didn't raise them, that's certainly not the implication you were going with earlier.

    And even in that brief window, they had the kids for at least a year or two, more in some publications like Children's Crusade where they show them clearly being at least 4-5 years old, when I'm pretty sure they were at most 3 in the old comics.

    In that time, they were a family. Wanda and Vision were their parents, trying to degrade that fact is fucking mental. You end up sounding like this:

    strangesays.jpg

    'She took care of them'

    Even if they were fake, which with Billy and Tommy being here now means they weren't all that fake, the two of them thought they were very, very real. And the pain of them disappearing and effectively dying was very real.

    Heck, in Avengers Assemble, part of Vision's bitterness is the fact that he felt betrayed by Wanda over the kids' issue. He lost his emotions when Pandemonium took them, so he couldn't react back then. If he had to react later, which some other comics did explore, he had the same pain.

    Trying to say they both felt nothing, or they both didn't invest emotionally into the two kids in that brief time, is fucking terrible and mindboggling. And saying that that investment and that pain isn't as 'real' because of genetic and biological reasons is inhuman.

    And as far as the conception, it was a clumsy mess because Englehart was a weird man who seriously wanted his android-human family and was going to do it by hook and crook. I've read the miniseries, it is awkward and fucking insane that they not once ever consider adoption, but there you go. As for the conception, the lead-up to it shows Wanda being...adamant... that she wanted Vision's kids...somehow...and Vision did plant that idea of using magic in her head earlier in the issue, but after that, she kinda decided that yup, all the demonic energy in Salem, that partially came from Harkness having been burned at the stake, that was totally the appropriate kind of magic and situation to make a pair of kids.

    The panel(s) for the conception/manifestation were quite suggestive (Englehart you are not a subtle man are you):




    But yeah, if we take it that Wanda warps reality to the point of being able to bring back the dead, or changing a planet's whole history or what-not, then if it's suggested to her to do something, and she takes up on that idea, yeah whatever, it's possible.

    You know this is partially why I'm pretty fine with the MCU's version of Vision being clearly techno-organic, hell of a lot more wriggle room.

    Edit: I love this one panel in JLA/Avengers where Red Tornado takes out photos of his adopted kid to show Wanda and Vision and then, only then, do they consider the logical conclusion that maybe, just-maybe, adoption's a good idea if they really want a family. Omfg.
    Last edited by Byakko; 06-27-2015 at 08:13 AM.

  7. #82
    Full sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    They were taken from Wanda and Vision while still being babies, so they didn't raise them.

    They have reincarnated, so they probably don't have either Wanda's or Vision's genes...but anyways, Vision's cells are made of a programmable self-replicating synthetic polymere, they aren't real cells, and they don't have DNA. Vision has been recently retconned as being made of nanomachines, but I'm not sure if that's still true or it has been forgotten by current writers.

    Not sure about Vision participation in the babies' mystical conception. All I remember is Agatha Harkness telling Wanda to use the wild magic taken from the witches and warlocks to cast the spell that impregnated her. As far as I can remember, Vision did nothing.
    Wanda's desire wasn't merely to have children. It was to have thier children. A family, with she and her husband.

    Vision didn't physically take part in the workings of the spell, outside of lending his moral support and strength to Wanda's ordeal. It was metaphoric sex at best. The spell though, and the desire for children, sprang from Vision and Wanda's union (and, her observation of Pietro and Crystal's happy little family, of course).

    So, no, Vision didn't utter the incantation or make the magic sigils...but he was at the center of the workings, and crucial to the spell and it's outcome.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Now you're saying they both didn't raise them, that's certainly not the implication you were going with earlier.

    And even in that brief window, they had the kids for at least a year or two, more in some publications like Children's Crusade where they show them clearly being at least 4-5 years old, when I'm pretty sure they were at most 3 in the old comics.

    In that time, they were a family. Wanda and Vision were their parents, trying to degrade that fact is fucking mental. You end up sounding like this:

    strangesays.jpg

    'She took care of them'

    Even if they were fake, which with Billy and Tommy being here now means they weren't all that fake, the two of them thought they were very, very real. And the pain of them disappearing and effectively dying was very real.

    Heck, in Avengers Assemble, part of Vision's bitterness is the fact that he felt betrayed by Wanda over the kids' issue. He lost his emotions when Pandemonium took them, so he couldn't react back then. If he had to react later, which some other comics did explore, he had the same pain.

    Trying to say they both felt nothing, or they both didn't invest emotionally into the two kids in that brief time, is fucking terrible and mindboggling. And saying that that investment and that pain isn't as 'real' because of genetic and biological reasons is inhuman.

    And as far as the conception, it was a clumsy mess because Englehart was a weird man who seriously wanted his android-human family and was going to do it by hook and crook. I've read the miniseries, it is awkward and fucking insane that they not once ever consider adoption, but there you go. As for the conception, the lead-up to it shows Wanda being...adamant... that she wanted Vision's kids...somehow...and Vision did plant that idea of using magic in her head earlier in the issue, but after that, she kinda decided that yup, all the demonic energy in Salem, that partially came from Harkness having been burned at the stake, that was totally the appropriate kind of magic and situation to make a pair of kids.

    The panel(s) for the conception/manifestation were quite suggestive (Englehart you are not a subtle man are you):




    But yeah, if we take it that Wanda warps reality to the point of being able to bring back the dead, or changing a planet's whole history or what-not, then if it's suggested to her to do something, and she takes up on that idea, yeah whatever, it's possible.

    You know this is partially why I'm pretty fine with the MCU's version of Vision being clearly techno-organic, hell of a lot more wriggle room.

    Edit: I love this one panel in JLA/Avengers where Red Tornado takes out photos of his adopted kid to show Wanda and Vision and then, only then, do they consider the logical conclusion that maybe, just-maybe, adoption's a good idea if they really want a family. Omfg.
    You are implying a lot ot things that I didn't say.

    I didn't say that "they both felt nothing, or they both didn't invest emotionally into the two kids in that brief time". I didn't say that only Wanda raised them.

    Neither Wanda nor Vision raised them. Tommy and Billy were raised by other people and they remember neither Wanda nor Vision, so they don't have that kind of bond. Wanda and Vision loved the kids, but to Tommy and Billy they are just two people they read about in magazines.

    Tommy and Billy felt that Wanda was their mother because she had created them with her magic and carried them in her womb. They weren't so sure what their relationship was with an android who couldn't possibly be their biological father and who, as far as they knew, didn't participate in the sorcery that created them. That's all I said.

    Please, don't attribute me opinions that I haven't expressed. Answer to what I have actually written.

  9. #84
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    I'd be surprised if we ever hear about Billy and Tommy's origins for a while anyway.

    First, they're not "really" Wanda and Vision's children, and their connection is too complicated for most comics to explain. Wiccan was in the "S.H.I.E.L.D." issue that guest-starred Wanda, she saved his life, but their connection was never once mentioned. They were just two mystics. That's got to be intentional.

    Second, because of the business of reincarnating two babies as teenagers, they make Wanda seem much older than she is, which is exactly one of the reasons Magneto was retconned out of being her father (if he's a Holocaust survivor, then the twins have been older than they should be since the '70s). I don't know what plans Marvel has for Wanda, and frankly I'm skeptical that the writers have any real interest in her despite the MCU - but no one who liked her and Vision in the MCU is going to want to hear that they're the parents of teenagers.

    Luminous mentioned offhand in this issue that Wanda "lost her children," which is deliberately ambiguous - but I think it does speak to the way Wanda and Vision's children will be portrayed. Billy and Tommy aren't important enough characters for Marvel to spend multiple pages on their links with two more important characters.

  10. #85
    Queen Mob Magda's Avatar
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    When we look carefully, Rick Remender built the architecture of its cycle Uncanny X-Force / Uncanny Avengers with people who lie to the best of intentions. And in general, this amounts to them in the figure below. Here, of course, it'sa finished explaining things about Pietro and Wanda but also to bring all these people on Earth. Not to find a new frame as the Uncanny Avengers are not really "Unity squad" of the previous volume (more so because two people are not even mutants).

    Make no mistake, there are things that are "forced" in these five episodes, imposed by a logic that has nothing to do with comics. Almost as if it was trying to get a foot in a shoe of another size. However, all is not throwing: There in particular two stars in the latest issue of this short series, that have in common is that characters Remender has just recovered, hitherto foreign to its network machinations initiated for at least Uncanny X-Force: Quicksilver ... and Vision. No, this poor Wanda remains equal to itself. When she is not sad after the identity of her parents, she still has the loss of Wonder Man or the fear of falling back on the side of chaos. Moreover, the end is pretty crisp. Remender gives a monologue rather (re) founder Pietro, who actually bounced off recent events to reassess his life. And it also makes Vision bearer of his "white lie", a kind of moral of the whole story, which points out that some people are (perhaps) not made to know the truth. I really thought Rogue Sabretooth or have more strategic roles in this saga. And curiously like a darling of Remender Dr. Voodoo is reduced to the rank of gimmick (Captain America, I imagine that the author assumes that it is more room elsewhere for the detail). But fate Vision really well managed. Better than it was, no doubt, since the 90 Quicksilver and Vision, led by Remender, have the potential to be a future Alex Summers volume of Uncanny Avengers. If it does, of course, that at present it is not officially known whether the series will return in the fall or, where applicable, the authors are the same. There are things that make grind in this arc, certainly, but there are others that are very promising for the future ...
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  11. #86
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I'd be surprised if we ever hear about Billy and Tommy's origins for a while anyway.

    First, they're not "really" Wanda and Vision's children, and their connection is too complicated for most comics to explain. Wiccan was in the "S.H.I.E.L.D." issue that guest-starred Wanda, she saved his life, but their connection was never once mentioned. They were just two mystics. That's got to be intentional.

    Second, because of the business of reincarnating two babies as teenagers, they make Wanda seem much older than she is, which is exactly one of the reasons Magneto was retconned out of being her father (if he's a Holocaust survivor, then the twins have been older than they should be since the '70s). I don't know what plans Marvel has for Wanda, and frankly I'm skeptical that the writers have any real interest in her despite the MCU - but no one who liked her and Vision in the MCU is going to want to hear that they're the parents of teenagers.

    Luminous mentioned offhand in this issue that Wanda "lost her children," which is deliberately ambiguous - but I think it does speak to the way Wanda and Vision's children will be portrayed. Billy and Tommy aren't important enough characters for Marvel to spend multiple pages on their links with two more important characters.
    Wait, so one of the reasons for retconning Magneto as the twins' parent was to not have them seem older? Was this explicitly stated?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Wait, so one of the reasons for retconning Magneto as the twins' parent was to not have them seem older? Was this explicitly stated?
    Brevoort has mentioned this on his Tumblr a few times. He hates the idea of tying them to World War II and doesn't like the fix that they were kept in stasis for decades.

  13. #88
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Brevoort has mentioned this on his Tumblr a few times. He hates the idea of tying them to World War II and doesn't like the fix that they were kept in stasis for decades.
    Brevoort seems to really prefer keeping characters "young," even taking Marvel time into account .
    Last edited by Frontier; 06-27-2015 at 09:12 PM.

  14. #89
    Mighty Member Byakko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I'd be surprised if we ever hear about Billy and Tommy's origins for a while anyway.

    First, they're not "really" Wanda and Vision's children, and their connection is too complicated for most comics to explain. Wiccan was in the "S.H.I.E.L.D." issue that guest-starred Wanda, she saved his life, but their connection was never once mentioned. They were just two mystics. That's got to be intentional.

    Second, because of the business of reincarnating two babies as teenagers, they make Wanda seem much older than she is, which is exactly one of the reasons Magneto was retconned out of being her father (if he's a Holocaust survivor, then the twins have been older than they should be since the '70s). I don't know what plans Marvel has for Wanda, and frankly I'm skeptical that the writers have any real interest in her despite the MCU - but no one who liked her and Vision in the MCU is going to want to hear that they're the parents of teenagers.

    Luminous mentioned offhand in this issue that Wanda "lost her children," which is deliberately ambiguous - but I think it does speak to the way Wanda and Vision's children will be portrayed. Billy and Tommy aren't important enough characters for Marvel to spend multiple pages on their links with two more important characters.
    Yeah I think the only thing of note was that Wanda figured that Wiccan would be targeted, and took some interest, but didn't actually show much interaction or affection with Wiccan in that issue. It should be noted that in Young Avengers Vol. 2, it does show that Wiccan doesn't really regard Wanda as 'mom', preferring to just call her Wanda (tho the 'Scarlet Mom' is pretty funny) and get her help if they actually need the Avengers' help, rather than his 'mom's' help.

    It makes sense, all things considered, it's exactly how most kids would be like with 'birth parents' that they find once they're grown up, arguably this doesn't even make sense in this case cause it's reincarnation, which brings up Avatar the Last Airbender's family ties across multiple lives plotline.

    But yeah, the timeline issue. It's...so messed up I think that's no point in trying to make sense of it at all. I remember someone mentioning that the FF having an origin based on the 60s-70s space race dated them, but that you had to ignore that in order to write stories for them. Also with Franklin's stunted growth (which at least has some possible canon reasons), and Valeria somehow growing at a more normal pace.

    That's the problem with children characters, especially ones who are offspring of established characters. Keeping them stuck at their age with no visible growth is weird, because the changes from year to year is naturally more obvious with younger characters, so if writers ignore it, it sticks out as being 'abnormal'. You can conveniently ignore this in at least young adult characters.

    One thing with the whole Secret Wars eventual reality merge thing, maybe they would end up retconning Billy and Tommy into being the direct grown-up version of the first set of twins that Wanda actually gave birth to in the first place. Something like how The Last Avenger's Story shows them existing after Wanda dies and growing up like regular people.

    It sort of clears up some of the mess with their origins, but that also means they would have to be regressed in age in order to not make Wanda seem that old? Not to mention doing that sort of destroys the reason Disassembled or House of M even happened but since we're in a position for retconning...

    but no one who liked her and Vision in the MCU is going to want to hear that they're the parents of teenagers
    Oh no, you got that quite opposite. Far as my interactions and observation of shippers on Tumblr, they are really quite happy about any form of canon offspring. They don't so much care about their ages, they are just happy they exist at all. In fact, they're mostly in favor of somehow Billy/Tommy being in the MCU. Ties up with the whole 'Young Avengers should get an MCU adaptation' mentality as well.
    Last edited by Byakko; 06-27-2015 at 11:00 PM.

  15. #90
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Brevoort has mentioned this on his Tumblr a few times. He hates the idea of tying them to World War II and doesn't like the fix that they were kept in stasis for decades.
    And yet he's perfectly fine with characters like Captain America, Winter Soldier and Black Widow having ties to WWII.

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