So sick of Jean Grey and her Phoenix Drama.

[vaf2675]

When the Phoenix was first established as being a cosmic force, Claremont described it as her version of Excalibur. She can exist without it and vice versa, but she (and her descendents) are destined for it.

Claremont also stated in an interview that the way he saw the whole Phoenix story ending was at the end of the Universe you would see Jean as Phoenix and Logan would be waiting for her, and they would finally get their moment and their passion would ignite the next Big Bang.

Now hopefully that will never happen, because as a story it sounds really whack.

But, considering that we know Phoenix is all about rising from the ashes, it shouldn't surprise anyone if Jean Grey and her fiery bird eventually do make a return. Hopefully next time she'll know how to control the damn thing and won't get killed so stupidly as she did the last time (still can't believe Xorn [or Magneto if you ask Morrison] was the one who killed the Phoenix, that is just crappy storytelling right there).

[OptimusPrime114]

Quite easily.
Originally it was just meant to be a part of Jean. In DPS, think of it like Jean as the super-ego (extreme when it comes to good, morals, all that stuff) and the phoenix as the id (does whatever it wants).
Then it became a "force". Jean and her children were supposedly destined to be the ones who could control/wield that force. Jean and the Phoenix were then basically two sides of the same coin. They could be independent of one another, but still part of the same thing.

The only reason Jean went nuts was the Mastermind stuff, not to mention no one had idea what the phoenix was back then, not like it could be prepared for.

In short her (and Rachel) can control it with ease. Freakouts are the exception.

That's a very interesting idea. What would Jean's powers consists of? Keep in mind, she still retains her original powers.

[ariwl1]

Claremont also stated in an interview that the way he saw the whole Phoenix story ending was at the end of the Universe you would see Jean as Phoenix and Logan would be waiting for her, and they would finally get their moment and their passion would ignite the next Big Bang.

Now hopefully that will never happen, because as a story it sounds really whack.

But, considering that we know Phoenix is all about rising from the ashes, it shouldn't surprise anyone if Jean Grey and her fiery bird eventually do make a return. Hopefully next time she'll know how to control the damn thing and won't get killed so stupidly as she did the last time (still can't believe Xorn [or Magneto if you ask Morrison] was the one who killed the Phoenix, that is just crappy storytelling right there).

Well the Excalibur line came from an actual published story that Claremont wrote; one of the Classic X-Men backups although I forget which number.

The Big Bang thing...well Claremont has always had something of a love affair with the Logan/Jean ship. It's pretty much the only reason it exists in the first place, and when it comes to the X-Men he can be a bit possessive. And they pretty much did that story in the AvX What If? mini so thankfully we'll likely never hear of it again.

The Xorneto thing indeed was just dumb. I've rationalized it by saying the Phoenix is not meant to stick around in any one place for a long time as it has other cosmic level work to do. And if you are eternal and don't have to worry about death you probably slack off from time to time.

[PwrdOn]

And that's the reason I'm so sick of love songs so tired of tears. So done with wishing you were still here...

[1bulma1]

Jean with the Phoenix is fine and is still very interesting. Unfortunately, there is a dearth of integrity and real talent in Marvel's offices, so the Phoenix has been used repeatedly in an effort to prop up characters much less interesting than Jean in the Hope of mindlessly duplicating what Claremont/Byrne accomplished without doing any real creative leg-work.

I'm tired of their vapid trash as well, 1bulma1. It all went to garbage during Endsong/Warsong when the over-powered fanboys desperately tied the Phoenix to their pet character's girlfriend.

Which brings me to what everyone should really be tired of: Jean/Scemma.

I mean, Morrison ended that pretty clearly. Scott chose Emma because she is better at sex than Jean or has bigger **** or whatever. That story was done yet, still to this day, the only story Jean is allowed to be a part of is "will they, won't they" boredom with Cyclops, even if it means putting adult Cyclops in her room while she's in bed and having her 16-year old self try to have sex with him there.

Jean/Scemma is more tiresome and pathetic than the endless parade of "my pet character becomes the Phoenix" fan-fiction Marvel has been producing. Lucky enough for us, current Marvel has great taste and has elected to supply us with both of these awful stories at the same time.

I enjoyed endsong. in fact I read it again last week after nearly 4 years. I bought war song I tired reading it but it bored me, maybe I will try again. I am on an xmen high right now thanks to days of future past but yes please enough with fire bird everywhere already.

[cwatz]

I enjoyed endsong. in fact I read it again last week after nearly 4 years. I bought war song I tired reading it but it bored me, maybe I will try again. I am on an xmen high right now thanks to days of future past but yes please enough with fire bird everywhere already.

Warsong is terrible. Its a prime example of one of those "terrible stories that also ruin continuity" that have hurt the phoenix property in the first place.

[1bulma1]

thank you. The sad truth is that I love jean. she was one of my favorite leads but gosh jean/Phoenix and her dying all the time is just too much now. Jean Grey of xmen evolution is my favorite jean because there was NO PHOENIX DRAMA.

If people think the past xmen films assassinated cyclops's character then they should not watch the last two xmen cartoons (wolverine and the x men and x men anime). cyclops is insufferable with his jean/pheoenix obsession.Its like he does not have a life of his own outside that. its annoying.

[Celestialbodies]

Morrison also retconned in that there is no such thing as an actual cosmic Phoenix entity. It always was just Jean Grey getting überpowerful.

Not quite, he had it as a separate force and apart of her natural mutation.

Jean with the Phoenix is fine and is still very interesting. Unfortunately, there is a dearth of integrity and real talent in Marvel's offices, so the Phoenix has been used repeatedly in an effort to prop up characters much less interesting than Jean in the Hope of mindlessly duplicating what Claremont/Byrne accomplished without doing any real creative leg-work.

I'm tired of their vapid trash as well, 1bulma1. It all went to garbage during Endsong/Warsong when the over-powered fanboys desperately tied the Phoenix to their pet character's girlfriend.

Which brings me to what everyone should really be tired of: Jean/Scemma.

I mean, Morrison ended that pretty clearly. Scott chose Emma because she is better at sex than Jean or has bigger **** or whatever. That story was done yet, still to this day, the only story Jean is allowed to be a part of is "will they, won't they" boredom with Cyclops, even if it means putting adult Cyclops in her room while she's in bed and having her 16-year old self try to have sex with him there.

Jean/Scemma is more tiresome and pathetic than the endless parade of "my pet character becomes the Phoenix" fan-fiction Marvel has been producing. Lucky enough for us, current Marvel has great taste and has elected to supply us with both of these awful stories at the same time.

Exactly, Jean with the PF isn't tiresome seeing writers continue to attach the PF to petty Jean replacement and random character X IS!!!!

Or more accurately, because two introverts are not a good match for each other, storywise. As a storyteller you really want partner Scott Summers up with somebody more outgoing than the also very repressed Jean Grey. Who will always be ten times hotter than Emma just by virtue of being a redhead who likes tight clothes.

Jean has never been a introvert though, contrary to popular belief she's always loved using her powers and has always been a people person but some were along the lines the message became skewed, somehow you can't be a wife and have a life separate from your husband without neglecting him and once you do that well...you HAVE to be replaced and killed off!!!

Jean Grey repressed? Somebody didn't read Dark Phoenix Saga.

Jean's very in tune with nature and doesn't hold back. It's a shame Morrison held her back by giving her 'planetary stroke' and shipping her off to White Hot Limbo.

Thank you!!!!

The entire reason the Dark Phoenix Saga worked was because that's not how Jean Grey usually behaves, which is why the Hell Fire Club had to break her down so she wouldn't be so repressed/squeamish about using her powers to do what ever she/they wanted. Because she's super repressed. Like literally. By Charles Xavier. Who put psychic blocks in her brain. To repress her. Literally.

He repressed parts of her powers, but Jean was never a repressed character something that is often missed or ignored is that BEFORE Claremont decided to make her into Phoenix Jean had already been growing in power and was coming into her own all he did was give her a better costume and codename but the changes in power and personality was already on an increase.

thank you. The sad truth is that I love jean. she was one of my favorite leads but gosh jean/Phoenix and her dying all the time is just too much now. Jean Grey of xmen evolution is my favorite jean because there was NO PHOENIX DRAMA.

If people think the past xmen films assassinated cyclops's character then they should not watch the last two xmen cartoons (wolverine and the x men and x men anime). cyclops is insufferable with his jean/phoenix obsession.Its like he does not have a life of his own outside that. its annoying.

Here's Jean's biggest problem is an over-exaggeration of her's deaths and time with the PF, which is both about twice when compared to many X-men is meager. I think because it's such an iconic story things are blown out of proportion as it relates to her because dying hell at this point even having the PF isn't mutually exclusive to Jean. But with the DPS being adapted into so many different forms of media it certainly does give the idea of Jean dying and returning a lot even though ironic enough she stays dead an extended period of time. But I do agree with the idea that I wish Jean could be able to move past the DPS crap and onto something else, which is why I'm excited for the future installments of the X-films let's hope she gets to do something else.

[coveredinbees]

I like the Phoenix. It makes some great proclamations.

[Anarchist]

The Phoenix is a fundamental part of the Marvel Universe and a fundamental part of Jean Grey as a character.
Seperating them would be like seperating Hulk from Bruce Banner.

[just another user]

Seperating them would be like seperating Hulk from Bruce Banner.

That could actually work

[MarvelMaster616]

This isn't the first time I've heard fans express this sentiment. In fact, I admit I've had this sentiment at times as well. But whenever I think about it critically, I realize that it's somewhat petty. The Phoenix is a concept that is as much a part of Jean Grey as Weapon X is to Wolverine or Krypton is to Superman or Gotham is to Batman. It's one of those themes that is so closely tied with another character that the act of cutting those ties basically undermines that character. People tend to forget that for most of her early history, Jean Grey was a somewhat flat character. People also forget that the early Lee/Kirby run of Uncanny X-men wasn't all that successful. It wasn't until Chris Claremont took over that the X-men became one of the most iconic superhero series of all time. And a big part of what Claremont did was make Jean Grey powerful in a way that she struggled to control. That's part of what the Phoenix represents and that's a big part of Jean Grey's struggle. As much as Cyclops's leadership or Wolverine's anger issues, Jean's struggle with her power is a big part of who she is. Taking it away only takes away a big part of her persona.

That's not to say that the Phoenix hasn't been mishandled. The events of Avengers vs. X-men is a case study in how NOT to handle a concept like the Phoenix. And also, the idea that Jean Grey was killed to make way for Emma Frost and Cyclops is just demonstrably wrong. Grant Morrison and other Marvel big wigs have said outright that they believed that Jean shouldn't have been brought back in the first place or that they didn't like how she was brought back. This was a a major source of conflict between Chris Claremont and the editors throughout the 80s. Killing her off again was very much their way of completing what they thought should have been done years ago. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's simply inaccurate to believe it was all done for Emma Frost.

Now I personally believe that Marvel is trying to address some of those flaws in Jean Grey's death through All New X-men. They're showing Jean Grey struggle with her powers, but it's not entirely due to the Phoenix. In fact, it's due to other factors entirely. But we have seen that the Phoenix will show up again, namely through Kid Omega. And we saw in Battle of the Atom that the Phoenix still craves Jean Grey. The concept itself isn't the issue here. The issue is how it has been used. I think editorial conflicts and personal sentiments have been a big part of the problem, but right now it looks like Marvel is trying to address those problems. Whether or not they'll succeed is a different story, but All New X-men gives us plenty of reason to hope.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

The problem is that Marvel keeps trying to convince people that the Phoenix isn't some fiery, galactic sex offender who gets off on murdering planets. Unless the storyline is super creepy, it just isn't going to work.

[People Of The Earth]

I don't know...The concept in itself is not bad, really.
I'd rather point at the lack of creativity of the X-writers when it comes down to Jean Grey, rather than at the character itself.
Phoenix is an easy cop out when it comes down to Jean Grey, the same way time travel/dystopian futures is when it comes down to the X-men as a whole.
It's expected, it's boring and yet, it's safe sales-wise.
From such a perspective, why would they feel the need to change anything ?
Plus, if the X-verse ever got rid of the Phoenix and time travel, it'd lose 80% of its steam and no one in the X-management would be ready to take such a leap in the unknown.

[Carabas]

That could actually work

And probably has been done a couple of times already.