Is Azzarello's WW run really as good as fans say?

[Silvanus]

I never said anything about being brought up. I was referring to the lack of companionship the First Born didn't get from his biological family. While the hyena-pack can't replace Zeus or Hera as parents, they most likely provided companionship that should have cooled the First Born's sense of loneliness.

I didn't see the First Born as feeling "lonely" so much as I saw him as unsocialized, maladjusted, embittered, resentful and hateful. And why wouldn't he be? He had no one to show him how to be a person, and he remembered his father sending him, as an infant, into the wilderness to die--all because he was destined to follow in his father's footsteps. That is tragically messed up, and a classic example of the prophesied doom that is created by a vain attempt to avoid it.

And that's why I think the First Born contributes to being "really as good as fans say"; even though he may not be the most morally complex villain in the world, he's a great monster/dark god, and he fits well into a mythos in which Kronus and Zeus, at least by some accounts, were messed up for similar reasons.

I'm a big believer in that people(or in FB's case pets) should not be considered family by blood alone but by how they treat you and take care of you.

I certainly agree that people who aren't blood relations can become as loving and caring a family as anyone can have. And my pets are part of my family--not question about that. But if you've only got pets--or hyenas--and no people at all to talk with you and "take care of you" as you grow up, and to model how to be an emotionally and socially functional sentient being, you've probably got some human needs that are not being met (at least not in anything like a healthy way). And so you're probably going to be pretty messed up. And if you're a god, maybe you'll grow up as virtually the personification of being messed up.

Am I right that you think that it's implausible for occasional pirates and a one-time adulterer to raise a person who ends up making loving choices, but you also think being raised by hyenas after being left for dead by one's father is an implausible reason to became a psychopathic monster? Do you see how those two arguments might seem not to go together?

[Dr. Poison]

I didn't see the First Born as feeling "lonely" so much as I saw him as unsocialized, maladjusted, embittered, resentful and hateful. And why wouldn't he be? He had no one to show him how to be a person, and he remembered his father sending him, as an infant, into the wilderness to die--all because he was destined to follow in his father's footsteps. That is tragically messed up, and a classic example of the prophesied doom that is created by a vain attempt to avoid it.

And that's why I think the First Born contributes to being "really as good as fans say"; even though he may not be the most morally complex villain in the world, he's a great monster/dark god, and he fits well into a mythos in which Kronus and Zeus, at least by some accounts, were messed up for similar reasons.



I certainly agree that people who aren't blood relations can become as loving and caring a family as anyone can have. And my pets are part of my family--not question about that. But if you've only got pets--or hyenas--and no people at all to talk with you and "take care of you" as you grow up, and to model how to be an emotionally and socially functional sentient being, you've probably got some human needs that are not being met (at least not in anything like a healthy way). And so you're probably going to be pretty messed up. And if you're a god, maybe you'll grow up as virtually the personification of being messed up.

Am I right that you think that it's implausible for occasional pirates and a one-time adulterer to raise a person who ends up making loving choices, but you also think being raised by hyenas after being left for dead by one's father is an implausible reason to became a psychopathic monster? Do you see how those two arguments might seem not to go together?

No, I don't. I don't think your comparisons are very comparable at all. There's a huge difference from a bunch of murderous, sex-pirates and a lying adulteress supposedly creating a being with a large amount of love and compassion and a pack of hyenas providing a being with companionship and should have at the very least, cooled the First Born's desire to destroy all of creation because his parents gave him up.

In fact, I know of someone who was given up for adoption and was never adopted thus growing up without a family all of his life and he's one of the nicest people I know. He's not hateful or resentful and has never been convicted of a crime.

[wagthedog]

I didn't see the First Born as feeling "lonely" so much as I saw him as unsocialized, maladjusted, embittered, resentful and hateful. And why wouldn't he be? He had no one to show him how to be a person, and he remembered his father sending him, as an infant, into the wilderness to die--all because he was destined to follow in his father's footsteps. That is tragically messed up, and a classic example of the prophesied doom that is created by a vain attempt to avoid it.

And that's why I think the First Born contributes to being "really as good as fans say"; even though he may not be the most morally complex villain in the world, he's a great monster/dark god, and he fits well into a mythos in which Kronus and Zeus, at least by some accounts, were messed up for similar reasons.



I certainly agree that people who aren't blood relations can become as loving and caring a family as anyone can have. And my pets are part of my family--not question about that. But if you've only got pets--or hyenas--and no people at all to talk with you and "take care of you" as you grow up, and to model how to be an emotionally and socially functional sentient being, you've probably got some human needs that are not being met (at least not in anything like a healthy way). And so you're probably going to be pretty messed up. And if you're a god, maybe you'll grow up as virtually the personification of being messed up.

Am I right that you think that it's implausible for occasional pirates and a one-time adulterer to raise a person who ends up making loving choices, but you also think being raised by hyenas after being left for dead by one's father is an implausible reason to became a psychopathic monster? Do you see how those two arguments might seem not to go together?

Just talking about the bolded part.....from what I can tell, many people felt that the First Born was two dimensional, not a great baddie or foil for Wonder Woman. And some of these comments come from the people who love the Azz run.

From where do you get the overall opinion that the First Born is 'really as good as fans say'?

[Dr. Poison]

Just talking about the bolded part.....from what I can tell, many people felt that the First Born was two dimensional, not a great baddie or foil for Wonder Woman. And some of these comments come from the people who love the Azz run.

From where do you get the overall opinion that the First Born is 'really as good as fans say'.

I also seem to recall Azz-fans saying that the First Born was two-dimensional and that they had wished that Apollo or Cassandra had been the "big villain" of the run.

[Silvanus]

No, I don't. I don't think your comparisons are very comparable at all. There's a huge difference from a bunch of murderous, sex-pirates and a lying adulteress supposedly creating a being with a large amount of love and compassion and a pack of hyenas providing a being with companionship and should have at the very least, cooled the First Born's desire to destroy all of creation because his parents gave him up.

In fact, I know of someone who was given up for adoption and was never adopted thus growing up without a family all of his life and he's one of the nicest people I know. He's not hateful or resentful and has never been convicted of a crime.

Yeah, I have no doubt that people can overcome challenging backgrounds. And that's a wonderful thing; your friend sounds amazing. But was your friend raised in the wilderness with absolutely no human companionship or role models or socialization at all, but only wild predators for companionship? And could he remember being left as an infant to die in the wilderness, all because his biological father feared him? I'm not taking anything away from your friend--just saying that a real human being couldn't even have experienced and survived the FB's circumstances.And not even gods are likely to survive such circumstances without getting messed up; Zeus' siblings did survive being swallowed by their father, and Zeus himself may have survived being raised by a goat, but most of them didn't exactly emerge as well-socialized, emotionally healthy people.

Just talking about the bolded part.....from what I can tell, many people felt that the First Born was two dimensional, not a great baddie or foil for Wonder Woman. And some of these comments come from the people who love the Azz run.

Just talking about the bolded part.....from what I can tell, many people felt that the First Born was two dimensional, not a great baddie or foil for Wonder Woman. And some of these comments come from the people who love the Azz run.

From where do you get the overall opinion that the First Born is 'really as good as fans say'.

As I said, I agree that the first born isn't "the most morally complex villain in the world." But I think he's more of a monster than he is like a human villain such as Lex Luthor, and as a monster, he works. I don't necessarily expect a monster--a pure force of hate and annihilation--to be morally complex; rather, monsters are often purely evil and hateful and terrifying.The First Born is as evil as Diana is good, and he's more like a supernatural force of hate and annihilation than he is like a person who can be reasoned with. As aa monster, he fits well into what Azz called the "horror" tone of the book, and as a monster who was created by patriarch trying to secure his reign against his son, he fits well into the Greek mythology that forms the book's background. So I think he worked as an integral part of the mythos of the book, and thus he contributed (for me, at least) to the book as a whole being (in the words of the thread title) "as good as fans say."

Sure, I realize that not every fan thought the First Born worked; but I don't ahve to agree with every fan.

[wagthedog]

As I said, I agree that the first born isn't "the most morally complex villain in the world." But I think he's more of a monster than he is like a human villain such as Lex Luthor, and as a monster, he works. I don't necessarily expect a monster--a pure force of hate and annihilation--to be morally complex; rather, monsters are often purely evil and hateful and terrifying.The First Born is as evil as Diana is good, and he's more like a supernatural force of hate and annihilation than he is like a person who can be reasoned with. As aa monster, he fits well into what Azz called the "horror" tone of the book, and as a monster who was created by patriarch trying to secure his reign against his son, he fits well into the Greek mythology that forms the book's background. So I think he worked as an integral part of the mythos of the book, and thus he contributed (for me, at least) to the book as a whole being (in the words of the thread title) "as good as fans say."

Sure, I realize that not every fan thought the First Born worked; but I don't ahve to agree with every fan.

The thread is 'Is Azz's WW run really as good as fans say.' You made the First Born out to be 'as good as fans say', which is totally different. They only connect together because they were part of the same story that Azz told. As many here have stated, they liked Azz's run, but found the First Born to be lackluster as a foe.

So, I totally agree that you don't have to agree with every fan, but you made it out to seem that the First Born was part of some poll (or something to that effect) where the majority thought 'he was as good as the fans say'.

Looking back at your post, I can see what you were saying, that he added to the 'as good as fans say', but it doesn't look like that upon a quick first glance.

[Silvanus]

The thread is 'Is Azz's WW run really as good as fans say.' You made the First Born out to be 'as good as fans say', which is totally different.

No, I was saying that I think the First Born contributes to the book as a whole being "as good as fans say."

Looking back at your post, I can see what you were saying, that he added to the 'as good as fans say',

Right.

but it doesn't look like that upon a quick first glance.

OK.

[wagthedog]

No, I was saying that I think the First Born contributes to the book as a whole being "as good as fans say."



Right.



OK.

Sometimes it is a problem with speed reading a post

[wonder39]

I consider it a *meh* run..... took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long to tell (THREE YEARS!), took too much focus away from Diana, and I didn't like the changes to her history or the Amazons...Azz could have basically told a similar story in 12 issues and not made her a god child w/ a*hole Amazons without it really messing with the overall "plot"

[Dr. Poison]

One thing I'd like to add is that CBR is only one source of opinion on Azzarello's run and the majority of the opinion here favors Azz's run. If you go on Facebook and check out any of the top 5 major Wonder Woman pages, you'll see a much different opinion. In fact, I ran my own poll on Share the Wonder(a page ran by Marston's granddaughter Christie) and over 70% said that they disliked Azz's run.

I'm just saying, don't let one website/avenue of social media make your decision for you.

[wagthedog]

I consider it a *meh* run..... took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long to tell (THREE YEARS!), took too much focus away from Diana, and I didn't like the changes to her history or the Amazons...Azz could have basically told a similar story in 12 issues and not made her a god child w/ a*hole Amazons without it really messing with the overall "plot"

Maybe a year and a half at most.

[SiegePerilous02]

I consider it a *meh* run..... took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long to tell (THREE YEARS!), took too much focus away from Diana, and I didn't like the changes to her history or the Amazons...Azz could have basically told a similar story in 12 issues and not made her a god child w/ a*hole Amazons without it really messing with the overall "plot"

I can't really see it being told in 12 issues. Maybe two years though. Orion and the New Genesis stuff could have been cut out, as well as Zola being all "hey guys, has anyone seen my baby today?" or Diana's various "hey, has anyone seen Zola and/or her plot mcguffin baby?" situations. And Apollo torturing the First Born for five issues could have been condensed or cut out. Did we really need five months straight of Apollo torturing his captive half brother in various ways before the FB broke out and Apollo blew up?

[wagthedog]

I can't really see it being told in 12 issues. Maybe two years though. Orion and the New Genesis stuff could have been cut out, as well as Zola being all "hey guys, has anyone seen my baby today?" or Diana's various "hey, has anyone seen Zola and/or her plot mcguffin baby?" situations. And Apollo torturing the First Born for five issues could have been condensed or cut out. Did we really need five months straight of Apollo torturing his captive half brother in various ways before the FB broke out and Apollo blew up?

I still think a year and a half would have been good. What about all the punny dialogue and unnecessary splash pages, like when Apollo and War were talking in a bar? Or Diana fighting cannon fodder centaurs not once, but twice. You know, those scary conjured centaurs that no one thought would have been much of an afterthought for someone with Diana's power. I am pretty sure they wouldn't have given Batman much of a sweat.

[wonder39]

I can't really see it being told in 12 issues. Maybe two years though. Orion and the New Genesis stuff could have been cut out, as well as Zola being all "hey guys, has anyone seen my baby today?" or Diana's various "hey, has anyone seen Zola and/or her plot mcguffin baby?" situations. And Apollo torturing the First Born for five issues could have been condensed or cut out. Did we really need five months straight of Apollo torturing his captive half brother in various ways before the FB broke out and Apollo blew up?

Well let's put it this way-- DC destroyed and rebuilt the Universe in 12 issues.... so I think Azz could have reigned it in to a year or under

[Dr. Poison]

Well let's put it this way-- DC destroyed and rebuilt the Universe in 12 issues.... so I think Azz could have reigned it in to a year or under

You make a really good point here. Marv Wolfman's 12 issues of Crisis On Infinite Earths accomplished 10x more than Azzarello did in 36+ issues of Wonder Woman and Marv shuffled a much, much larger cast.