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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjak View Post
    This felt like a feel-good issue. Too bad this run will be overlooked by fans and critics, it's doing everything right.
    I agree that DC could be doing a lot more to hype this run. This, if only in concept, has appeal to non-comics readers, and is exactly the kind of Superman reinterpretation (actually not a new take for Superman, but one that's faded from public consciousness) I'd be pushing to get audiences to reinvest in the character.

    But a little blog press about Superman tackling police brutality, and some reviews in the right places, could go a long way.

  2. #62

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    Another great Issue, pretty psyched to have this. I've wanted to see exactly this version of Superman for years.
    Detective HAD Batman as he should be IMO. Guess having Superman and Batman perfect at the same time would just be too much to ask for lol
    Might be like crossing the streams.
    Action Comics, Superman/Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Teen Titans, Astro City, Spider-Man 2099, Lazarus, The Maxx: Maxximized, Invader Zim
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  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I love how Superman finally losing it and clocking the cop coincided with the panel of the scared little boy crying for his daddy. Totally Superman that this would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. He took all he could stands and he can'ts stands no more.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #64
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    Pak and Kuder are doing amazing things.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Also, there's many ways to be a minority, including some that would make you white (being a Jew, for instance). And you can symbolize minorities without being one in the traditionnal sense yourself (for instance, the X Men are traditionnaly considered a metaphore for homosexuals, despite most of them actually being straight). In the narrative we are given, Superman is a metaphore for the immigrant and the minority by virtue of being an alien.
    I cannot agree that all minorities and their experiences are interchangeable. The real incident evoked in this story was the consequence of racial prejudice, systemic corruption, and oppression. The citizens of Kentville were being targeted because of their connection and support of an alien outsider who had not yet been a victim of anything close to the kind of prejudice and oppression people of color endure. Racism is not xenophobia. Clark is a victim of xenophobia: people fear him because he is an outsider. The individuals in Ferguson, New York City, Charleston, Baltimore, and elsewhere are victims of racism: people look down on them as inferior; they are dehumanized as less-than. Sometimes the two can overlap, but in this case they do not.

    In that regard, the accusation of him being a "mighty whitey" strikes me as being devoid of meaning. He may be technically white (and many minorities are white) but he's not a WASP by any mean.
    There are exceptions to white privilege now? The truth of the matter is: any minority who can pass as white is not subject to the same prejudice and injustice suffered by those who cannot pass as white. White privilege is not a label assigned exclusively to WASPS.

    And why they were gathering isn't important. The cops were about to crush them and Superman came there to stood by them, not save the day for them.
    Why they are gathering should be important. It is important. They are gathering to support Clark Kent because they are not afraid of him, they value his contribution to their lives, and they want to protect their homes from an attack that wouldn't have happened if Clark Kent had never set foot in the neighborhood. They are not gathering to protest their victimization or racial oppression. They are there because of Superman who stands by them in the end because they are standing for him. Superman stands by them by standing in front of them; he is at he center. If the message was simply, "He's one of us," then I would have preferred Clark taking his place next to Lee and Dante rather than placing himself in front of them.
    Last edited by misslane; 07-01-2015 at 09:33 PM.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Because what they are doing I feel would be undermined if they suddenly retconed all this with something really trite to just go back to the old status quo of the secret ID and him back working at the DP as if nothing happened and he just wins over folks in a few arcs.
    Nothing that happened in Pak's "Truth" arc has genuinely hinged on the fact that Superman does not have a secret identity. The story could easily just be about anti-Superman hysteria for how little Clark Kent matters to this arc's plots.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
    The one aspect I took some issue with was its dodging of the racial politics inexorably tied into police abuse, but as Double 0 pointed out, the comic handles it deftly by placing most the focus at the protest on the residents of the community; Superman is taking their cue rather than saving or rallying them. And in general casting the police in the role they're given here is a great way to shine a light toward these issues. The comic doesn't dramatize it; it simply approaches it as a plausible interaction between police and a community protest, which, in many, many parts of the U.S., it is.
    With Ferguson, many of the people were standing up for oppression that they themselves experienced because they were just like Michael Brown -- what happened to him could happen to them. With Kentville, they weren't even protesting at first. They were simply having a party to celebrate Superman when things escalated; but they were still standing up for Superman. He was their cause, and he was their savior. Michael Brown was an ordinary guy who was killed because of systemic and institutionalized problems of racism and police corruption (and militarization) in America. Superman isn't a martyr and, unlike with Michael Brown, there is some validity to complaints about him. He has had power (still does, though to a lesser degree) that makes him threatening, he did act unethically as a journalist reporting on his deeds, and his presence has done good as well as harm, though unintentionally, like when he became Doomsday. To fear and mistreat outsiders/immigrants/aliens based on cultural differences is irrational xenophobia. When it comes to Superman, however, people can be justified for having concerns. By contrast, racism is hatred for people perceived as different that manifests as an attitude of superiority and oppression of those deemed beneath them.

    I appreciate the comic for the stance it takes against police brutality and for shining a light on the issue. It is a problem and those who protest and challenge that authority are to be applauded for their courage and conviction. What I don't appreciate about the comic is how it exploits the broad strokes of the real life events to aggrandize Superman and equate him with victims of systemic racism. I don't appreciate the issue telling me about the times Superman helped these people instead of actually showing me and allowing me to read about that guy before this event took place, or how a middle position between the poles of the brutal police and adoring fans isn't fleshed out. I don't appreciate how this story could have been told without the secret identity reveal, as Pak continues to largely focus his narrative on Superman's powerlessness.
    Last edited by misslane; 07-01-2015 at 09:35 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    With Ferguson, many of the people were standing up for oppression that they themselves experienced because they were just like Michael Brown -- what happened to him could happen to them. With Kentville, they weren't even protesting at first. They were simply having a party to celebrate Superman when things escalated; but they were still standing up for Superman. He was their cause, and he was their savior. Michael Brown was an ordinary guy who was killed because of systemic and institutionalized problems of racism and police corruption (and militarization) in America. Superman isn't a martyr and, unlike with Michael Brown, there is some validity to complaints about him. He has had power (still does, though to a lesser degree) that makes him threatening, he did act unethically as a journalist reporting on his deeds, and his presence has done good as well as harm, though unintentionally, like when he became Doomsday. To fear and mistreat outsiders/immigrants/aliens based on cultural differences is irrational xenophobia. When it comes to Superman, however, people can be justified for having concerns. By contrast, racism is hatred for people perceived as different that manifests as an attitude of superiority and oppression of those deemed beneath them.

    I appreciate the comic for the stance it takes against police brutality and for shining a light on the issue. It is a problem and those who protest and challenge that authority are to be applauded for their courage and conviction. What I don't appreciate about the comic is how it exploits the broad strokes of the real life events to aggrandize Superman and equate him with victims of systemic racism. I don't appreciate the issue telling me about the times Superman helped these people instead of actually showing me and allowing me to read about that guy before this event took place, or how a middle position between the poles of the brutal police and adoring fans isn't fleshed out. I don't appreciate how this story could have been told without the secret identity reveal, as Pak continues to largely focus his narrative on Superman's powerlessness.
    Bruce has done many of those things before yet has a strong relationship with the Gotham Police Department, shouldn't the GCPD hate Batman? They're both tall, dark haired, blue-eyed white men shouldn't they get the same treatment from society?
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Bruce has done many of those things before yet has a strong relationship with the Gotham Police Department, shouldn't the GCPD hate Batman? They're both tall, dark haired, blue-eyed white men shouldn't they get the same treatment from society?
    I'm not that familiar with Batman mythology, but I'll give this one a shot. As far as I can tell, Bruce, as Batman, has forged alliances with the good cops of Gotham. He recognized that his brand of heroism works best when the members of the lawful good are in his corner. Superman, by contrast, has never quite successfully allied himself with anyone or worked within any system to reform it. The closest Clark could say to have attempted something similar would have been as a journalist, but since he pursued that endeavor under a different name, it failed to accomplish similar results. Batman doesn't get the same treatment from society because he interacts with society differently. Plus, just to be clear, the GCPD isn't always openly in Batman's corner. Batman will play the role of society's hunted outcast if it ultimately serves a greater good.

  10. #70
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    I always thought if one were going to do a topical story with Superman having parallels to a disenfranchised group of people then it would be immigrants. In today's climate it would probably be Hispanic immigrant's as the hot button, but I can damn sure tell you that they aren't the only immigrants having a horrible time trying to make it here (in the US). Sargent Binghamton says the equivalent of "they took 'er jerbs" to Superman lol.

    I'd like the immigrant angle to be played up more when all the dust sets and Superman has to live in the new stage set for him.

  11. #71
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I cannot agree that all minorities and their experiences are interchangeable.
    Pretty sure that is not what I said. Like, at all.
    Also, there's been many instances of people trying to deshumanize Clark and put him in "racial" parameters since Truth started, so to speak. What about all the times he's been called an alien, as an insult? How about the cop's speech about "cleaning up after you', where he pretty much assimilates Clark with Zod, or Brainiac,and consider them one group? Hell, he's been the target of actual Neonazis (the Supremascists from the Bm/Sm book), so it's not like the "he's a minority" metaphore is subtle.


    There are exceptions to white privilege now? The truth of the matter is: any minority who can pass as white is not subject to the same prejudice and injustice suffered by those who cannot pass as white. White privilege is not a label assigned exclusively to WASPS.
    [/QUOTE]

    And that's exactly what you're not getting: because of the revelation of his secret identity, he can't "pass as white" anymore. In the context of the metaphore, "passing as white" was pretending to be a regular human as glasses Daily Planet reporter Clark Kent. And as such, he is subject to perhaps not exactly the same prejudice and injustice, but a symbolic taste of it (got fired from the job he got pretending to be "white/human", sees his place of birth and heritage used as an insult against him, is attacked on the street just for being who he is...).


    Why they are gathering should be important. It is important. They are gathering to support Clark Kent because they are not afraid of him, they value his contribution to their lives, and they want to protect their homes from an attack that wouldn't have happened if Clark Kent had never set foot in the neighborhood. They are not gathering to protest their victimization or racial oppression. They are there because of Superman who stands by them in the end because they are standing for him. Superman stands by them by standing in front of them; he is at he center. If the message was simply, "He's one of us," then I would have preferred Clark taking his place next to Lee and Dante rather than placing himself in front of them.
    Well, no, sure. They are here to protest against the symbolic victimization and racial oppression of Superman. My point still stands. The police is here to crush a peaceful protest because it dislikes what it's standing up for. Superman isn't standing up with them because they're supporting him. I mean, sure, he likes what they're doing, but the reason he's here isn't to defend is rights, it's to protect them. That's why he's in front. He's protecting them by using himself as a shield. That's always been the "Superman" paradoxe. He's "one of us", yet he's always in front to take the beating we can't take.
    Also, a metaphore doesn't have to be 100% accurate to work. Last I checked, gay people don't shoot lasers from their eyes, and yetthe X Men are still commonly accepted as a LGBT metaphore.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  12. #72

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    Is Superman a mutant?

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I never liked Superman as a metaphor on immigration since he was safely hidden behind his white skin and pair of glasses, we would get "I don't fit in" lines from time to time, but for me it always felt like self induced pity.
    But with his public identity being revealed its completely different game, people are hating him because he is alien, because he "causes" problems, because he makes police feel irrelevant (also touched in Morrison's issues where some construction worker asks how he is supposed to compete) and he lost 99% of his powers so people are not afraid to show their anger, which probably has slowly been building up since Superman appeared for the first time.

  14. #74
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I never liked Superman as a metaphor on immigration since he was safely hidden behind his white skin and pair of glasses, we would get "I don't fit in" lines from time to time, but for me it always felt like self induced pity.
    Well that's really confusing the immigrants and xenophobia with racism. Anyone from another culture coming to another place can be considered an immigrant. Superman's creators Siegel and Shuster had white skin but were very much immigrants and knew the immigrant story all to well. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were too and they were also white. The xenophobia over immigrants goes FAR deeper than what color their skin is. It's that air of "other" that they bring that sets people off too. Stan and Jack even changed their names to better fit in. It's the idea of having to dumb your self and your culture down or completely do away with it.

    It's the idea of that little Hispanic girl who tells her friends that she's half white when she's not or yells at her mom for cooking their native food when her friends are over. It's the idea of parents from far off exotic places naming their kids Joe or Kevin as opposed to a more traditional name just so they can have a fighting chance in society. These are very real things that happen in the world today.

    That was the reality that Superman's creators lived with and that's one of the big points behind the identity of Clark Kent. That's his "acceptable" name or his "normal" name. So I find it even better that two first generation Asian Americans in 2015 were the ones to push that idea more and expose his identity. I hope they keep on pushing as far as this will go.

    But to sum up Superman's metaphor as an immigrant is still a very strong one because an immigrant is not a particular race.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I probably should have expanded a bit in my first post. Anyway, Superman's parents are Americans, he was raised by them since he was a baby. He becomes aware of different culture only when he becomes Superman and finds fortress of solitude. Only select few people know of his heritage, Clark Kent is never persecuted by anyone. Clark Kent fits into society perfectly, only quirk being his clumsiness which is actually faked by Clark. Literally nobody asides of Clark himself and select few friends know that he is not your regular American.

    And I completely disagree with Clark Kent being his acceptable name. Bruce Wayne is a mask for Batman, Superman is a mask for Clark Kent.

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