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  1. #91
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Yes, but stories still could have and are told about Superman being the victim of anti-alien and anti-superhero sentiments when he has his secret identity in place, and people could have gathered in support of Superman in a place like Times Square if Clark's neighborhood wouldn't work without the ID reveal. Even the fact he has a glasses disguise is a way to tell the story of a person, like other immigrants, who feels he or she has to hide and assimilate by adopting the behaviors and attire of the new culture.

    The reason why removing Clark's ability to pass as white is irrelevant to the real life parallels in this issue is that passing as white is something that affects victims of racism more than victims of xenophobia. Clark is not hated any more now than when people knew him as Superman because his secret identity was revealed. He was an alien then and he's an alien now. His inability to escape hatred by passing as Clark leaves him vulnerable to xenophobia. People fear him because his is an unknown other. Racism is systemic oppression and prejudice as a result of one group perceiving themselves superior to another group.
    You're forgetting the fact that one of the biggest reasons he's getting more backlash than usual is because they now have documented proof that he was living among them and pretending to be of them. In a move of complete xenophobia that was brought about by his outed ID they had hazmat teams in Kentville checking for "alien contamination" or something similar. This is pure xenophobia because not too long ago they canvassed the area for contamination during Doomed.

    It's one thing for people to see a group of foreigners at "their designated church" or "their designated gathering places" but it's another thing the people "who were here first" to see foreigners and immigrants in their schools or churches or playing with their kids or working their jobs etc. Some xenophobic people can deal with it when they see that their is a designated "place" for these aliens that they don't have to really interact with them if they don't want to. It's almost like they can think of them as being back in their country again and go on about their "normal" lives. But when the xenophobic people realize that they are sharing close personal space with the people, same school, churches, work etc? Well it just ramps things up.

    Superman had his place in a lot of the peoples eyes. They could almost dehumanize him and I'm sure they did as just this guy who come around and fixed things and nothing more. So when the people of the city find out that Superman doesn't just fly back into space or his ice fortress after he's done doing his work, for some of them, it's unsettling.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-02-2015 at 01:53 PM.

  2. #92
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    And the whole "I can't fight, but I can stand with them" landed just on the right side of meta given the context.
    I'm so glad someone else caught that too. I almost thought I was going crazy for thinking it. Loved it.

  3. #93
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Well, then, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not okay with exploiting the experience of an ordinary, martyred, black man whose people in America have been enslaved and discriminated against for centuries as a result of institutionalized racism, fueled by hate for that which is perceived as inferior, to Superman. If the creators wanted to tell a story about the immigrant experience, then use events that correspond with the immigrant experience instead of appropriating the experiences of another population. I appreciated the overall message of the issue, but Pak's use (misuse) of a scene that was promoted as "ripped from the headlines" does not sit right with me.

    Well, I guess it's a good thing this issue isn't doing that, then.
    Does the issue mention Fergusson? No. While the imagery can be reminiscent, the issue is a much more general statement about police brutality (which sadly goes wayy beyond Fergusson), the abuse of power, and the deshumanization of the "other". If we can't talk about these things without it being "exploitation", then I say we need more "exploitation" right now.
    I mean,, it's like saying that Green Arrow's speech in the classic ""Green Lantern/Green Arrow" run from the 70's where he mentions the death of Kennedy and Luther King is "exploiting" these deaths. Or that the issue where it talks about drugs is "exploiting" the suffering of the drug victims. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. Talking about relevant issues isn't exploitation, it's talking about relevant issues that needs to be addressed.
    Also, "promoted as ripped from the headlines".....Huh, could you give an example of what you're talking about? Because I sure didn't know that scene was going to happened when I opened this book, and I have been following Truth fairly extensively.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
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  4. #94
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Yes, but stories still could have and are told about Superman being the victim of anti-alien and anti-superhero sentiments when he has his secret identity in place, and people could have gathered in support of Superman in a place like Times Square if Clark's neighborhood wouldn't work without the ID reveal. Even the fact he has a glasses disguise is a way to tell the story of a person, like other immigrants, who feels he or she has to hide and assimilate by adopting the behaviors and attire of the new culture.
    Yes, and this is the story of what happens when he can't do that anymore.

    The reason why removing Clark's ability to pass as white is irrelevant to the real life parallels in this issue is that passing as white is something that affects victims of racism more than victims of xenophobia. Clark is not hated any more now than when people knew him as Superman because his secret identity was revealed. He was an alien then and he's an alien now. His inability to escape hatred by passing as Clark leaves him vulnerable to xenophobia. People fear him because his is an unknown other. Racism is systemic oppression and prejudice as a result of one group perceiving themselves superior to another group.

    "Racism: Discrimination or prejudice based on race. "

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism

    How is Superman being attacked on the street while called a "dirty alien" not racism? Seems to me it matches pretty well the idea of being discriminated based on his race.
    What you fail to understand is this simple truth: these people feared Superman before his identity got exposed. Just look at the New 52 in general. The guy was a controversial figure, loved by some, and feared by others because he was an alien. What has changed is that, without his glasses persona, he can't shield himself from it anymore. That, and they didn't like the idea he pretended to be a human in the first place.

    Superman is not a victim of racism in the same way that the people of Ferguson, Charleston, and Baltimore were victims of racism. Those people were attacked, in part, because the white people in society believed themselves to be superior to black people. They were attacked and oppressed for no reason. Clark as an outed alien is not being attacked or oppressed because he is perceived as inferior. He's being attacked because he's a superpowered alien who actually did deceive the public by writing unethical stories as a journalist and who did actually bring death and destruction to places and people associated with him. His experiences are not analogous to the black American experience. Superman isn't an all-purpose stand-in for any oppressed group by nature of his alien heritage (imagine him representing women who experience sexism, for instance).
    Okay, a few things:
    1) If you think the rednecks from Alaska are angry at Superman because he wrote "unethical stories", then....Let's just say that I see no indication that it's the case, and that with them caling Clark a "dirty alien", I find it hard to believe that's where their issue with him lies.

    2) As far as the whole "bringing death and destruction" thing goes...Sounds to me like the kind of stuff people would blame on Superman because of his alienness. The statement itself is myopic at best, quite frankly. Superman isn't responsible for other aliens attacking the planet. Not only that, but it's ignoring all the time Superman saved lives, when it wasn't the entire planet. So, long story short, putting Superman in the same bag as the other aliens because he's an alien (ignoring the fact that Mongul and Superman are as aliens to one another as they are to humans), accusing him of stuff he isn't responsible for, and ignoring all the positive things he did because it contradicts your point sounds like the kind of stuff a racist would say.
    (Just to be clear, I'm not talking about you. I'm just saying that, when the cop in AC 42 makes his big speech, he doesn't actually have a point, but tries to justify his own frustration at the fact he feels Superman is overshadowing him). Racists always find "reasons" to hate on others groups: "they're stealing our jobs", "they're violent and cause insecurity", "we don't feel like Americans in our own country"....So, pretty much what the cop is accusing Clark of.

    3) Superman may not be a stand-in for any oppressed group, but he is an accepted stand-in for immigrants. Who by definition are non American. And so, by definition, minorities.
    There's a specific aspect to racism toward black people in the US, but it's been far from the only oppressed group. There's been many white minorities, many of which were oppressed in the history of mankind, including by other white groups. Traditionnally, Superman is considered a Jewish. I'm not going to explain to you why Jews in general has a sad long history of being oppressed by Western Societies, even without reaching the Godwin point, including in the US. Why do you think people like Siegel and Shuster had to change their names? Because, if thy didn't, what happened to Superman here would have happened to them. So, Superman is symbolically a Jew (since the very begginning), Jews have been oppressed for a long time, therefore Superman is an apt stand in to talk about oppression.

    4) I have no idea where your definition of "racism" and "xenophobia" come from, but it doesn't match the ones I found.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
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  5. #95
    Spectacular Member Blue Light's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Well, then, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not okay with exploiting the experience of an ordinary, martyred, black man whose people in America have been enslaved and discriminated against for centuries as a result of institutionalized racism, fueled by hate for that which is perceived as inferior, to Superman. If the creators wanted to tell a story about the immigrant experience, then use events that correspond with the immigrant experience instead of appropriating the experiences of another population. I appreciated the overall message of the issue, but Pak's use (misuse) of a scene that was promoted as "ripped from the headlines" does not sit right with me.
    When was this promoted as 'ripped from the headlines'? I feel that the differences you yourself pointed out earlier in this thread, between those real stories and this one, are exactly what keeps it from being exploitative.

    They didn't have Clark stepping in the way of a police crackdown on Metropolis' own instance of those same protests. That would have been extremely tacky. They just had him face down the police going for a very different protest. The parallels not really lining up, as you said they don't, is what makes this fiction addressing a problem with a respectable amount of distance. Which is one of the things fiction is for.

    Do you have this same problem with the X-Men?

    EDIT: Shadow Ninja'd
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    THUNK
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, I guess it's a good thing this issue isn't doing that, then.
    Does the issue mention Fergusson? No. While the imagery can be reminiscent, the issue is a much more general statement about police brutality (which sadly goes wayy beyond Fergusson), the abuse of power, and the deshumanization of the "other".
    We're not talking just about black people, either; there've been Native and Asian American victims as well. And there are hundreds of black victims as well. You cannot say it' just one black man they're talking about---it cheapens the problem. It's a systemic problem, which I think is well within Pak's purview as a writer.
    Last edited by gwangung; 07-02-2015 at 02:08 PM.

  7. #97
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    We're not talking just about black people, either; there've been Native and Asian American victims as well. It's a systemic problem, which I think is well within Pak's purview as a writer.
    Exactly. The reason the "Clark as a minority" analogy works is because this type of oppression isn't really about skin color, but about difference. As an alien, Clark would be just as different in the eyes of these people as, say, a Latino, and therefore, just as much concerned by this issue as he.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
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  8. #98
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    This thread would feel right at home on the X-Men boards and I like it.
    "If I come back from the dead one more time I'll be seriously in danger of turning into some kind of walking cliche." - Jean Grey, Uncanny X-Men #284

  9. #99
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Even leaving race out of it, Police brutality is a problem all of us, regardless of race, should be concerned about. It comes down to abuse of authority...and taking that on is certainly a job for Superman. Siegel and Shuster would be proud of Pak I think.

  10. #100
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Police brutality is a such a problem in the United States that I loved this issue despite any and all narrative flaws. Its heart was in the exact right place and I could feel the passion in that.

    Superman's line "I can't fight, but I can stand with them" as a meta call out to us real flesh and bone 3D folks that don't have the power to resurrect and don't have our own Kal-El, was great. As if he's telling us readers that he might not be out there in the real world to actually fight alongside of us and help us in a concrete way, he can surely stand with us in solidarity and offer us hope and encouragement through his 2D existence.

    I'd love to see Superman stick around with his role here but the logical conclusion of this man, in this situation, will never be met in a mainstream comic. Superman would topple oppression, if this were allowed to reach a logical conclusion.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 07-02-2015 at 06:06 PM.

  11. #101
    Mighty Member andersonh1's Avatar
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    Great, now we've got stupid anti-police propoganda disguised as a Superman story. Another reason not to like the current story direction. Have any of these writers ever worked with police? Been one and walked in their shoes? Have any friends or family who are in the police force? I hate these biased, completely cartoony and inaccurate portrayals. Most police are entirely professional and do a very tough job without acting like fascists. But you'd never know it from reading fiction like this.
    Last edited by andersonh1; 07-03-2015 at 02:08 PM.

  12. #102
    Incredible Member Bookem Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kivatt View Post
    Dante was the highlight of the issue for me.
    Agreed. Ms.Lambert was more likable than Lois' varied interpretations of late too. Overall good story, good art.

  13. #103
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersonh1 View Post
    Great, now we've got stupid anti-police propoganda disguised as a Superman story. Another reason not to like the current story direction. Have any of these writers ever worked with police? Been one and walked in their shoes? Have any friends or family who are in the police force? I hate these biased, completely cartoony and inaccurate portrayals. Most police are entirely professional and do a very tough job without acting like fascists. But you'd never know it from reading fiction like this.
    This isn't anti-police. This is anti-corruption, in the form of one guy corrupting the bunch. If you'd read the story, you'd see that there are officers against what this one guy is orchestrating. Some are following this guy's orders yes, which is more than enough for trouble, but there are others who don't like it and are trying to stop it. And its funny you try and disparage it by using the term "disguised as a Superman story" when some of your most classic Superman tales have been inspired by using corruption in the powers of the day as a social commentary. My god that is a hallmark of the original Siegel and Shuster stories. I'd like to see you call the stories from the men who actually made this character "disguised" Superman stories. Fact of the matter is there is corruption in the police force (and no, admitting that is not being anti-police), its getting enhanced attention lately, and its entirely appropriate to reference relevant current events it in fiction.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-03-2015 at 08:48 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  14. #104
    Spectacular Member oldschoolfan's Avatar
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    Default This rocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Great, great issue.

    Pak is writing the Superman of this age.
    This single issue of Action should get nominated for an Eisner Award. I really thought the execution was that good.

    The Superman title has been excellent, but I thought this issue of Action struck a chord that few comics get to.....

    The creative teams on these books (Action, Superman, Batman/Superman and Superman/Wonder Woman) have given this franchise an indy feeling. Something that some people might not have thought possible. But here we are......

    Keep up the great work gentlemen. Can't wait to get next weeks issue!

  15. #105
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    I had my doubts when I heard about Clark being outed. So far, this one stands out as one of the better efforts. (I know we've only seen five, but still...) The monster fight started things out well, but his stand between the protestors and the police elevated things. And at the end, I thought, "Oh no, he di'n't." (I know the cop had it coming, but still...)

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