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  1. #106
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    LOL at the "anti-police propaganda" comment...

  2. #107
    Amazing Member Tre Styles's Avatar
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    This was a very good issue. Probably one of the best that I've read with this new school Superman. The parallels that it draws with real world issues are obvious, but there is great character work being examined here. The cover reading "Justice" makes me think that this "Truth" series is playing to an old saying that has long been associated with the Man of Steel...aka "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". In a sense, it seems to be exploring all 3 of those themes. There is an old commentary that came out around the time the last Superman movie was out. It fits this discussion, you can read it here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/op...3103.html?_r=0

  3. #108
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    So good.

    Superman's clearly not anti-cop. He's like (to the one cop), "how are you doing this? Remember that time I saved your butt? I sure remember it." and that cop's like "yeah, I'm probably not doing this, that's still Superman," (it's a move we literally have seen before many times - prominently in JLA, for instance, when Eiling's Ultramarines and their military support were like "oh god we're targeting Superman and it really doesn't look like he's gone rogue here ... what have we done?") and questions the ethics of his orders. They clearly play both sides as the police captain or whatever - sunglasses guy - the guy who we can't see his eyes so we're not supposed to sympathize with, organizing the fascistic response is something of an anti-Superman grudge-having zealot who is using the fall of Superman's secret identity as his justification. He's a justifier. He's a bully. He's abusing his power and diminishing the respect and honor of the men who take orders from him, and that's exactly who Superman stands up against. Seriously, Glorious Godfrey is probably like the one preaching anti-Superman sentiment into his ear.

    Then you've got the juxtaposition of Lambert, just as brave and honorable (maybe a little moreso), servicewoman, life-saver, everyday hero, and when's the last time you ever heard anti-firefighter propaganda because they don't wear authoritarian uniforms or crack skulls or drop tear gas and riot gear on peaceful protesters. Or the military veteran who won't stand to see what essentially looks like an occupying force in his own neighborhood. But these aren't direct parallels. Like, the comparison is there if you're looking for it, but like most good fiction I think it's more of a classic pulp spin. One bad cop with a mad-on for our hero, making the rest of the cops look bad, but it's still essentially "one bad cop", particularly "one bad cop who is the classic archetypal "ANTI-VIGILANTE" cop," and Superman being vulnerable enough now that these guys come out of the woodwork, having not really been seen since his early years.

    Hob's Bay isn't exactly the nicest part of Metropolis.
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  4. #109
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    One bad cop with a mad-on for our hero, making the rest of the cops look bad, but it's still essentially "one bad cop", particularly "one bad cop who is the classic archetypal "ANTI-VIGILANTE" cop," and Superman being vulnerable enough now that these guys come out of the woodwork, having not really been seen since his early years.
    Which is why I disagree with the argument some are making about the cops being portrayed as "stereotypically evil" or whatever. I understand the argument for "glasses guy" (although these people do exist, sadly), and some of the cops are following him without question, but I think there's been enough voices among them voicing their disagreement to counter the notion that Pak is "anti cop", especially with "glasses guy" being shown as working with "Tower Command", a clearly non official organisation that seems to be entirely devoted to destroying Superman. I wouldn't be surprised if the cops end up turning against "glasses guy" in the following issues after his "true nature" is revealed.
    In a way, it's a bit like Clint Eastwood's "The Gauntlet", where the police commissionner is on the mob's payroll and try to murder the hero and the witness he's protecting, using his subordonnates, who're "just" follow orders. One crooked individual in a position of power can do a lot of dammage, because those who will openly oppose him are going to be a minority.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
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  5. #110
    Astonishing Member UltimateTy's Avatar
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    Wow, I haven't read a comic that made me feel something like this issue did in a long time.

    I wish more people were talking about this run.
    We need better comics

  6. #111
    Spectacular Member oldschoolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateTy View Post
    Wow, I haven't read a comic that made me feel something like this issue did in a long time.

    I wish more people were talking about this run.
    I will say it again, and I hope the powers that be are listening. This single issue of Action should be nominated for an Eisner Award.

  7. #112
    Mighty Member Ragdoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateTy View Post
    I wish more people were talking about this run.
    I've been trying to bring it up on comic forums that don't generally discuss DC or Superman. It deserves more recognition for sure.

    My only fear is that all of this will be retconned within a year and Clark gets his secret identity back. It would ruin how powerful all these trials were.

  8. #113

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    i don't want greg pak and aaron kuder to leave action comics as it still feels like a superman comic whatever their story that they are forced in

  9. #114
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragdoll View Post
    I've been trying to bring it up on comic forums that don't generally discuss DC or Superman. It deserves more recognition for sure.

    My only fear is that all of this will be retconned within a year and Clark gets his secret identity back. It would ruin how powerful all these trials were.
    I don't think that will happen. The costume and powers, yes, definitely. But I think his secret being out will remain for longer than that.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    This isn't anti-police. This is anti-corruption, in the form of one guy corrupting the bunch. If you'd read the story, you'd see that there are officers against what this one guy is orchestrating. Some are following this guy's orders yes, which is more than enough for trouble, but there are others who don't like it and are trying to stop it. And its funny you try and disparage it by using the term "disguised as a Superman story" when some of your most classic Superman tales have been inspired by using corruption in the powers of the day as a social commentary. My god that is a hallmark of the original Siegel and Shuster stories. I'd like to see you call the stories from the men who actually made this character "disguised" Superman stories. Fact of the matter is there is corruption in the police force (and no, admitting that is not being anti-police), its getting enhanced attention lately, and its entirely appropriate to reference relevant current events it in fiction.
    Here's my take on it, and I say this as a police officer myself...

    I picked up on the anti-police message pretty quick. I don't have a problem with that per se - it's par for the course and I do believe corruption exists in some police agencies, as it exists in other parts of American governments or businesses.

    My problem with it here is that it places Superman firmly as picking one side, while simultaneously casting the Metropolis police department as thugs for no reason other than to convey the writer's political views. I mean, why would the police hate Superman so much that they would beat him for no real reason other than the fact that some Sergeant (who also receives no real backstory or explanation) tells them to?

    Let me tell you something - I've worked with DOZENS of officers of all races, ages, both genders, both sexual orientations, etc. Does racism and prejudices exist in law enforcement? Absolutely. Has any officer I ever met or worked with went on duty with the mindset or intent of wanting to beat or kill someone? NEVER, even with dealing with a person they don't like or otherwise have a prejudice against. That officer would have a pretty short career (if not life) in whatever agency he/she worked for.

    So while I'm fine with Pak using real-life events to portray police corruption and Superman standing against it, do it in a realistic and fair way. Don't give us some mustache-twirling villain as the face of police corruption.

  11. #116
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Fair enough, I respect your stance. I'm rather sensitive on the anti-cop sentiment too myself though as my sister and brother-in-law are officers. That the main aggressor was more of a mustache twirling villain is exactly what made it palpable for me. What I mean by this is, by establishing here and in another book that there's more to this guy than meets the eye, I already know he's not actually representative of police. I mean, it seems that way until he's categorically revealed as something else, but once he is, to me you have your more sinister agenda with the police force just being used as a pawn. I see them as victims too, to be honest.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-08-2015 at 02:20 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Here's my take on it, and I say this as a police officer myself...

    I picked up on the anti-police message pretty quick. I don't have a problem with that per se - it's par for the course and I do believe corruption exists in some police agencies, as it exists in other parts of American governments or businesses.

    My problem with it here is that it places Superman firmly as picking one side, while simultaneously casting the Metropolis police department as thugs for no reason other than to convey the writer's political views. I mean, why would the police hate Superman so much that they would beat him for no real reason other than the fact that some Sergeant (who also receives no real backstory or explanation) tells them to?

    Let me tell you something - I've worked with DOZENS of officers of all races, ages, both genders, both sexual orientations, etc. Does racism and prejudices exist in law enforcement? Absolutely. Has any officer I ever met or worked with went on duty with the mindset or intent of wanting to beat or kill someone? NEVER, even with dealing with a person they don't like or otherwise have a prejudice against. That officer would have a pretty short career (if not life) in whatever agency he/she worked for.

    So while I'm fine with Pak using real-life events to portray police corruption and Superman standing against it, do it in a realistic and fair way. Don't give us some mustache-twirling villain as the face of police corruption.
    this kind of thing doesn't help anyone. It's very fair see both sides of the conflict in a realistic way.

  13. #118
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    [QUOTE=kingaliencracker;1335601]Here's my take on it, and I say this as a police officer myself...

    I picked up on the ant-ipolice message pretty quick. I don't have a problem with that per se - it's par for the course and I do believe corruption exists in some police agencies, as it exists in other parts of American governments or businesses.

    My problem with it here is that it places Superman firmly as picking one side, while simultaneously casting the Metropolis police department as thugs for no reason other than to convey the writer's political views. I mean, why would the police hate Superman so much that they would beat him for no real reason other than the fact that some Sergeant (who also receives no real backstory or explanation) tells them to?

    Let me tell you something - I've worked with DOZENS of officers of all races, ages, both genders, both sexual orientations, etc. Does racism and prejudices exist in law enforcement? Absolutely. Has any officer I ever met or worked with went on duty with the mindset or intent of wanting to beat or kill someone? NEVER, even with dealing with a person they don't like or otherwise have a prejudice against. That officer would have a pretty short career (if not life) in whatever agency he/she worked for.

    So while I'm fine with Pak using real-life events to portray police corruption and Superman standing against it, do it in a realistic and fair way. Don't give us some mustache-twirling villain as the face of police corruption[\QUOTE]

    I think some of this was my problem as well. These cops may be run of the mill Metropolis PD or they may be a small minority of corrupt cops, I really couldn't tell from the presentation here. Outside of Lee Lambert, do we get any indication that the sergeant is acting without official backing? The issue felt more like Superman had stepped into Bizarro World where thugs enforce the law and there are a few good apples who are the exception. Lee's radio call certainly isn't getting any response from anyone. Might be the wrong continuity but just where is this version of Inspector Henderson or even Dan Turpin? Give us some one other than a lone fire-fighter to show that the average authority figure in Metropolis isn't more interested in bashing Superman than serving and protecting.

    I don't object to the cops we were shown being shown, I just felt like this was done in a vacuum with the bad guys being our only look at anyone acting in an official capacity. Lee was not there as a fire-fighter, but as a regular citizen. And not one person of equal or higher authority to our sergeant seems aware of and opposed to what is happening. It feels more like Gotham before Batman and Gordon made any impact rather than Metropolis.

  14. #119
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jon Clark;1338238]
    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Here's my take on it, and I say this as a police officer myself...

    I picked up on the ant-ipolice message pretty quick. I don't have a problem with that per se - it's par for the course and I do believe corruption exists in some police agencies, as it exists in other parts of American governments or businesses.

    My problem with it here is that it places Superman firmly as picking one side, while simultaneously casting the Metropolis police department as thugs for no reason other than to convey the writer's political views. I mean, why would the police hate Superman so much that they would beat him for no real reason other than the fact that some Sergeant (who also receives no real backstory or explanation) tells them to?

    Let me tell you something - I've worked with DOZENS of officers of all races, ages, both genders, both sexual orientations, etc. Does racism and prejudices exist in law enforcement? Absolutely. Has any officer I ever met or worked with went on duty with the mindset or intent of wanting to beat or kill someone? NEVER, even with dealing with a person they don't like or otherwise have a prejudice against. That officer would have a pretty short career (if not life) in whatever agency he/she worked for.

    So while I'm fine with Pak using real-life events to portray police corruption and Superman standing against it, do it in a realistic and fair way. Don't give us some mustache-twirling villain as the face of police corruption[\QUOTE]

    I think some of this was my problem as well. These cops may be run of the mill Metropolis PD or they may be a small minority of corrupt cops, I really couldn't tell from the presentation here. Outside of Lee Lambert, do we get any indication that the sergeant is acting without official backing? The issue felt more like Superman had stepped into Bizarro World where thugs enforce the law and there are a few good apples who are the exception. Lee's radio call certainly isn't getting any response from anyone. Might be the wrong continuity but just where is this version of Inspector Henderson or even Dan Turpin? Give us some one other than a lone fire-fighter to show that the average authority figure in Metropolis isn't more interested in bashing Superman than serving and protecting.

    I don't object to the cops we were shown being shown, I just felt like this was done in a vacuum with the bad guys being our only look at anyone acting in an official capacity. Lee was not there as a fire-fighter, but as a regular citizen. And not one person of equal or higher authority to our sergeant seems aware of and opposed to what is happening. It feels more like Gotham before Batman and Gordon made any impact rather than Metropolis.

    What about Mizoguchi and Davidovitch? They're cops on the scene, yet they try to stand up to the person in charge when they feel like it goes too far (one even gets punched in the face for his trouble). Seems to me they're just as much authority figures as Lee.
    Also, we might not know that the corrupted cop is working without official backing, but we dont know he is either. What we know is that he's working with a group called "Dawn Command", which seems to be behind pretty much everything wrong that happened to Superman. The fact he called them rather than his superiors before moving in doesn't exactly speak in favor of him being sanctionned by his superiors.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  15. #120
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    [QUOTE=Auguste Dupin;1338414]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post


    What about Mizoguchi and Davidovitch? They're cops on the scene, yet they try to stand up to the person in charge when they feel like it goes too far (one even gets punched in the face for his trouble). Seems to me they're just as much authority figures as Lee.
    Also, we might not know that the corrupted cop is working without official backing, but we dont know he is either. What we know is that he's working with a group called "Dawn Command", which seems to be behind pretty much everything wrong that happened to Superman. The fact he called them rather than his superiors before moving in doesn't exactly speak in favor of him being sanctionned by his superiors.
    Both Mizoguchi and Davidovich are however reluctantly going along with the plan. The story doesn't paint the sergeant as going a bit over the line, he is obviously in the wrong. This isn't a "Het someone in this crowd threw a brick at me and I thought the crowd was about to explode" situation. Unless these guys are incredibly dense they know what is happening is way beyond legal. The fact Davidovich doesn't take his tear gas gun and leave or that Mizoguchi isn't coming physically to Superman's defense makes them accomplices to what happens.

    And while this whole thing might not have official backing, but if not why isn't Lee's radio call getting ANY attention from someone with the authority to tell Binghamton to stand down? And why is Jim Gordon apparently under the impression that Superman slugged a cop, rather than Superman dealt with a psycho hiding behind a badge? Seems to me Metropolis PD must have backed Bingham enough that Gordon can believe that Superman is in the wrong here.

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