Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[vitruvian]

It goes to the time paradox of doom causing the incursions because he saw one happening.

It happens because it does.

Or like Molecule Man sorta says : magic stuff mixed with sciency sort of stuff

Yes, but it also clearly means the past of destroyed universes is not likewise destroyed, as I said. If it were, then Doom and Molecule Man could not have traveled to the past of a destroyed universe. If you can get there via time machine after going into white space, then it's not gone, except in the sense that everything in the past is gone until you have a time machine.

[Emma's Midriff]

Its kind of annoying and par for the course with what Marvel has done with Cyke over the years anyhow. He is supposed to be the next best strategist than Cap. Yeah he's a wiener (a real Brad Majors kind of guy), but he is also that good. But lately he's just sucked. Killed his mentor/surrogate father, ruined the best relationship for him (Emma), and let the mutant race split, even though its endangered (because despite hope, the numbers were scarily low). As people have pointed out, there are plenty of Scots running around. I doubt Doom did more than kill the Pheonix host, which means there are some candidates in any of the realms to be possessed (Jeans there, as is Rachel, and well young mr Quire might get his chance).

What irks me (if Scott shows up, and just died like that) is he was a wasted character to bring along. He's said and done very little, even in issue 1, he's been pretty much lurking menacingly (which is Dooms thing), and then "snap" he's dead. Oh well, we shall see. I am loving the Mini series, and curious as to how the "normal" universe will be at the end.

Since when is Captain America a better strategist than Cyclops?

[jackolover]

Well that has destroyed the fabric of good will that had existed for 8 years on Battleworld. Doom and Strange had managed the whole of their world in unanimous cooperation, but it took the appearance and the sudden capitulation of Doom to 616-Reed Richards' 616 aloofness to destabilise in an instant, what had been certain security for the longest time. And Doom killed one of his 616 friends in the process, in Strange, because the very appearance of other 616 acquaintances had such a negative effect on Dooms certainty.

I am a little surprised that the Pheonix was so easily dealt with. That tells me Doom did defeat the Beyonders as Doctor Strange mentioned, and that to do that, Doom must have gained enough power to be a god. But the 616 won't entertain gods and God complexes. Not even Scott Summers attempt to claim Battleworld for mutant kind, in his madness.

When Doom returns to the castle in SW #5, he will be a different Doom to the one who left it., because Sue and Valeria will have seen Doom is vulnerable to these 616 constants as Val calls them. Sue will be curious as to why this stretchy bearded Reed Richards has had this violent effect on Victor, and Victor will tell her to shut up. Then Sue and Val will have to confront that the world they knew has changed and that Victor poses the problem of survival, and that Sue and Reed will have to meet.

But it doesn't solve the problem of what scattering the two rafts to every corner of Battleworld. This just changes all the stories in each Domain when a 616 suddenly appears and the wrath of Doom has changed so much as a result of these interlopers. My god, this is going to put the cat among the pigeons.

[Indian Ink]

So, re; the recent New Avengers Annual; what has happened to the powerful demon that was trapped inside of Strange's body? Has it been destroyed or has it escaped?

[jackolover]

Also a key point here- there are only two Reeds in all of Battleworld- Maker and 616 Richards. So Doom didn't kill any Reeds or steal Sue from any Reeds. But he did recreate Reed's family.

And that final interaction between Strange and Doom- priceless

Yes, even Doom was surprised when he saw a Reed Richards. But not as shocked when he learned it was the actual 616 version he so feared, and even in his god mode, Victor can't deny it, that he feared Reed Richards. This is a marvellous revelation that as wonderful as Doom has stabilised Battleworlds society, he is susceptible to this lowly, unresourced, fellow scientist. Why is that so?

[vitruvian]

Since when is Captain America a better strategist than Cyclops?

Is that an intentional straight line? Canonically, by most writers' accounts, since WWII. Of course, that can certainly be argued either way, with a host of examples of each character making both good and bad strategic (and tactical) choices.

Honestly, it seems to me that the evidence would show that both characters are shown to be good to excellent tacticians, with exceptions and flubs when the writer really drops the ball and has them make battlefield decisions that make no sense, but mediocre to poor strategists. Neither one gets high marks for long-term planning, choice of battlefield, or even logistics. Cap usually lets others like Tony handle the long term planning and logistics, rarely employs the political and public relations capital and good will he's built up from being a living legend (e.g., Civil War, where his solution to a legal and political problem is street fights and he surrenders when said street fights start causing collateral damage), and Cyclops' big strategic move I can think of consists of moving basically all the members of a persecuted minority he can get to follow him to an armed encampment that is fully in public view and declaring it a nation independent from the country in whose territorial waters it rests, and from which, so far as I can ascertain, his people still get all their supplies (unless Namor was providing a lot of seaweed salad or something), the place being a barren hunk of metal in the ocean...

[Xalfrea]

So the folks who were on the raft that were scattered will still retain their old memories? Gonna complicate matters, as was said.

[vitruvian]

Well that has destroyed the fabric of good will that had existed for 8 years on Battleworld. Doom and Strange had managed the whole of their world in unanimous cooperation, but it took the appearance and the sudden capitulation of Doom to 616-Reed Richards' 616 aloofness to destabilise in an instant, what had been certain security for the longest time. And Doom killed one of his 616 friends in the process, in Strange, because the very appearance of other 616 acquaintances had such a negative effect on Dooms certainty.

What capitulation? I missed any capitulation on Doom's part. Do you mean something else?

I am a little surprised that the Pheonix was so easily dealt with. That tells me Doom did defeat the Beyonders as Doctor Strange mentioned, and that to do that, Doom must have gained enough power to be a god. But the 616 won't entertain gods and God complexes. Not even Scott Summers attempt to claim Battleworld for mutant kind, in his madness.

Lucky for Doom then that this is not the 616, although even if that were the case, this is not true. The 616 has had plenty of gods, and far from all of them instantly messed up and lost their power like both Doom and Thanos have done in the past.

When Doom returns to the castle in SW #5, he will be a different Doom to the one who left it., because Sue and Valeria will have seen Doom is vulnerable to these 616 constants as Val calls them. Sue will be curious as to why this stretchy bearded Reed Richards has had this violent effect on Victor, and Victor will tell her to shut up. Then Sue and Val will have to confront that the world they knew has changed and that Victor poses the problem of survival, and that Sue and Reed will have to meet.

But it doesn't solve the problem of what scattering the two rafts to every corner of Battleworld. This just changes all the stories in each Domain when a 616 suddenly appears and the wrath of Doom has changed so much as a result of these interlopers. My god, this is going to put the cat among the pigeons.

This much you have correct, Doom was certainly rattled, ended up killing probably his most vital lieutenant on Battleworld, and his situation will most likely continue to unravel.

[vitruvian]

So the folks who were on the raft that were scattered will still retain their old memories? Gonna complicate matters, as was said.

Strange was helping them out with his teleport spell, so it would have made no sense to erase their true memories at the same time. It would have defeated the purpose of having them, especially Richards, upset Doom's power structure in favor of a hope of a better world.

[jackolover]

Cyclops dying was the best part for me.

You have no idea how the Cyclops appreciation forum truly feel that he was going to make the biggest impact in the story. (believe me they've been warned but they don't listen and many of them don't really follow much of marvel books anything that don't feat. cyclops. Now I cant wait til they start harping how SW simply sucks as an event in general cause Phoenix Cyclops didn't save the day.)

Plus the way cyclops came off before he died definitely suggested he was in it for himself and not so much everyone else around him.

Kudos's Johnathon Hickman. This is going to be the ultimate showdown between Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom.

So cyclops is dead and probably recreated by Doom and dumped in New York 616/1610 or The one in UE is a created ver. and Doom killed the real one.

Dr. Strange scattered everyone else so....

Thano's 616 is in IG
Star Lord 616 is in Upcoming Kitty and Star Lord mini
Carol 616 is in CM and Corps
Namor 616 is in A-Force
Tchalla and Reed is unknown. (probably hanging around in the main SW book)

Edit:

Dr. Strange and Doom was priceless
Thano's calling out Doom on his god hood was great and adding if not hinting there's more than meet's the eye to Doom. Also the point Valeria made about Thano's 616 being stronger than the BW iteration that is present.
Scott ideology being imbued with a cosmic nature god force and facing another god was ok but it definitely felt more like Scott giving off his own personal intentions than not.

When Thanos called Doom out as being a god, Doom had the chance to evaporate all of them, (like he did Strange), but he didn't. Again, another subconscious way Doom sabotages himself on every Occassion where others can have alternative world views to his own. Why keep the 616's alive? Just kill them, and get back to his life of being Supremo. But he didn't. He waited till Strange conserved them all, and then capped that hole by killing Strange, instead?

[vitruvian]

Yes, even Doom was surprised when he saw a Reed Richards. But not as shocked when he learned it was the actual 616 version he so feared, and even in his god mode, Victor can't deny it, that he feared Reed Richards. This is a marvellous revelation that as wonderful as Doom has stabilised Battleworlds society, he is susceptible to this lowly, unresourced, fellow scientist. Why is that so?

Because history. You have to go back to actual FF Reed vs. Victor stories, there are so many times when Doom thought he had the upper hand and Richards defeated him anyway. Even the power of a god doesn't necessarily change that, not if Richards has time to learn about the situation and figure out a plan; it's not like Doom hasn't had nearly the power advantage he does now and still lost before, e.g., the time he stole the Surfer's Power Cosmic, the first Secret Wars, many other times.

[vitruvian]

Thano's 616 is in IG
Star Lord 616 is in Upcoming Kitty and Star Lord mini
Carol 616 is in CM and Corps
Namor 616 is in A-Force.

I don't think we can assume any of these are the 616 versions, or that those tie-ins are happening at a later point than SW #4. They could very well be alternate versions of the characters, with the 616 versions who were scattered here retaining all their original memories, since without those it will be much more difficult for them to oppose Doom's rule AND preserve Battleworld and/or create a new universe.

[jackolover]

What capitulation? I missed any capitulation on Doom's part. Do you mean something else?



Lucky for Doom then that this is not the 616, although even if that were the case, this is not true. The 616 has had plenty of gods, and far from all of them instantly messed up and lost their power like both Doom and Thanos have done in the past.



This much you have correct, Doom was certainly rattled, ended up killing probably his most vital lieutenant on Battleworld, and his situation will most likely continue to unravel.

Oh no, I mean CAPITULATION. Doom turned into a little boy around Reed, once Reed opened his mouth and sounded like Dooms parent. The previous bravado Doom had, instantly turned into this secondary child around Reed. It was palpable.

No, I'm not suggesting this is actually still the 616. Sorry, I meant to say the 616 Raftees. And I was only mentioning the despots thinking they are gods, (like Doom and Thanos), not people like Odin, or Zeus.

I'm glad to hear you agree. My understanding of this issues consequences at least has some validity, at least

[vitruvian]

When Thanos called Doom out as being a god, Doom had the chance to evaporate all of them, (like he did Strange), but he didn't. Again, another subconscious way Doom sabotages himself on every Occassion where others can have alternative world views to his own. Why keep the 616's alive? Just kill them, and get back to his life of being Supremo. But he didn't. He waited till Strange conserved them all, and then capped that hole by killing Strange, instead?

Quite simply, because monologuing. He bought his own spiel about being a merciful God who was willing to accept them as his subjects, he got distracted by PhoenixClops being just credible enough a threat for him to have to exert himself a little, and in the meantime Strange sent the others away and Doom didn't know exactly where.

Of course, if he's truly omnipotent, his powers should include being able to directly mind control Strange with all his memories and magical faculties intact, and thereby simply force Strange to bring them back or tell him where he sent them, but Strange seems to deliberately incite Doom into vaporizing Strange instead.

[vitruvian]

Oh no, I mean CAPITULATION. Doom turned into a little boy around Reed, once Reed opened his mouth and sounded like Dooms parent. The previous bravado Doom had, instantly turned into this secondary child around Reed. It was palpable.

That's not what capitulation means. I don't see Doom surrender to Reed in this issue or agree to any demands from Reed, so no, Doom does not capitulate.