Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[MarvelMaster616]

Wow. That's probably the best way to describe this issue. Wow. It had that kind of impact. I'm not just talking about the two major deaths that happened (one of which might not even stick). This issue basically lit the spark that turned Secret Wars into a real war. For the past few issues, we've just been watching as Dr. Doom demonstrates his god-like power over Battleworld. Now, with the arrival of Reed and the rest of the survivors, we see him falter in a very human way. It had quite an impact and I loved it.

This is the kind of drama I was hoping to see at some point in this battle. Marvel hadn't done a good job of making these big battles feel like there's some emotional weight to it. Part of what made Civil War so groundbreaking was the personal drama behind the characters. Not a lot of events have captured that particularly well. This issue definitely did. I think the two major deaths really reinforced it in all the right ways. It helps that we know they're getting retconned, but it doesn't take away from the impact.

At the halfway point, Secret Wars has been every bit as epic as I had hoped. But I'm still resisting the urge to get too optimistic. Marvel still needs to show that it can end a big event in a satisfying way. This feels like one of those events that could easily crash and burn. I hope it doesn't happen, but right now Secret Wars has everything going for it. I did a full review of this issue on my blog. If anyone is interested, here's a link:

My Review for Secret Wars #4

[Biclopcicle]

I have to say, I never saw that ending coming. I mean, I know Doom has that sort of brutality in him, and after living 8 years as a god, I'm sure it's just gotten worse. It's just that he has seemed benevolent (well, more or less. by his standards) because no one is willing to stand up to him, not to his face anyway. And it seemed like Strange was good and whipped, so i didn't think he would, despite expressing some earlier misgivings. but he did stand up to him and....

Reed! If there's anyone that can get into Doom's wheelhouse, it's that guy

[Golden Guardian of Good]

There is only one Phoenix Force. It represents the past, present, and future life in all the multiverse. I wouldn't necessarily say that the Living Tribunal is "stronger" than the Phoenix Force. I think the power levels of these abstracts have never been clearly defined and open to a lot of interpretation. So I wouldn't say that, for instance, that Phoenixclops surviving would undermine Hickman's story mechanics.

Um...The Living Tribunal is stronger than the Phoenix Force. He's suppose to be second to only TOAA...

[Kurolegacy]

Cyclophoenix is gone. Im so giddy I could tapdance. Never again for the love of god.

Gonna be really interesting to see how all of this unfolds.

Yea as much as I do like Cyclops, the Cyclops that Hickman has been writing just isn't Cyclops. Every time that he said anything he sounded like some kind of religious nutjob.

And can we please stop giving Cyclops the Phoenix. It was one of my least favorite concepts of AvX and still remains one of my least favorite concepts for him. He's not a Phoenix host.

[Raye]

Reed! If there's anyone that can get into Doom's wheelhouse, it's that guy

Yup! and we've got two of them kicking about... though of course Doom will only care about HIS Reed, and of course 616 Reed will have far more of a grudge against Doom than Ultimate Reed.

I was kinda curious how Hickman would get us rooting against Doom and for Reed, after Doom DID save at least something of the old universe, which is difficult to see as a bad thing, even if he has fucked with everyone's memories and stuff. This did it for me.

[JamJams]

Another amazing issue! I like how the past issues set-up the new world and the new direction and how everyone differed to Doom unquestiongly. Then this issue brought it all together where Doom has to confront other survivors from his long-dead world and of course falls right back into "RIIIIIIICHARDS!"

Two big deaths and now we have to wonder what happened to everyone due to Dr Strange's spell.

[cwatz]

Yea as much as I do like Cyclops, the Cyclops that Hickman has been writing just isn't Cyclops. Every time that he said anything he sounded like some kind of religious nutjob.

And can we please stop giving Cyclops the Phoenix. It was one of my least favorite concepts of AvX and still remains one of my least favorite concepts for him. He's not a Phoenix host.

Im a little more forgiving on the religious nutjob side. Considering his storyline in UXM and how hes been hanging on by a thread for years, losing it would be par for the course. Dangerous/Crazy Scott can be kind of fun (from time to time of course, not permanently)

Exactly. The Phoenix has been practically ruined in the last decade thanks to its whoring. I love Cyclops, but the desire to keep throwing the Phoenix on him is just embarrassing and awful.

[Narasinha]

Um...The Living Tribunal is stronger than the Phoenix Force. He's suppose to be second to only TOAA...

And the Beyonders are stronger than Doom. Yet, here we are...

Is gravity stronger than electromagnetism? Does that have a meaning? They are just base forces of our universe. That's "how it work". Is there a meaning to compare the LT and the PF? They are part of the Marvel universe. That's "how it work". Perhaps the PF can't destroy the LT. But can the LT destroy/create universe? They just don't have the same role in the working of the multiverse.

[Hariel0079]

But we do not know that.

Yea we do, that's why since past issues it's been reiterated

What is in the comics is that Doom took the Beyonders power and saved what he could. First of all, we do not know if that is true.

Don't think Strange was lying that note and I believe Hickman confirmed that.

But even if it is true, we do not know what he saved or how he saved.

patches, incursion points of impacts from multiple earths

Did he really took patches of terrain of dying earths and put them on battleworld, or he saved the people and recreated each domain according to their memories? Did he really save someone, or all the domains are recreations from information in the library of worlds, or other place?

???? I think your reaching for something else though it's already been explained to you.

The things depicted in the comics point more to a recreation of domains by Doom, than to he saving them.

Again, patches, saved what he could to create BW

The Thor's Corp was created by Doom, not saved from the multiverse.

Thor corps never exsisted prior to doom, that statement makes no sense since your insisting the Thor corps has always been around

In Ultimate End, which was supposed to be in 616/1610 domain, we see that 616 Stark is alive and not Superior, supposedly 616 Cyclops and 616 Spider-man are present.

Since when does BMB sticks to continuity?

In Attilan Rising, also supposed to be in 616 we see inhumans that are supposed to dead, and Black Bolt can talk.

Is that even confirmed about Attilan? Cause I don't recall that.

[Hariel0079]

Yea as much as I do like Cyclops, the Cyclops that Hickman has been writing just isn't Cyclops. Every time that he said anything he sounded like some kind of religious nutjob.

And can we please stop giving Cyclops the Phoenix. It was one of my least favorite concepts of AvX and still remains one of my least favorite concepts for him. He's not a Phoenix host.

Yea but he sounded like a nut job at the beginning of AvX pre-Phoenix force.

[Hariel0079]

And the Beyonders are stronger than Doom. Yet, here we are...
\.

One would think but, MM was on equal grounds with the Beyonders in terms of Power, and he instructed on how to prepare for them.

[Hariel0079]

Yep, that and the fact she was drawn to Reed makes me doubt whether Hickman was telling the truth. I think this may be 616 Sue and kids.

I thought Hickman stated that Sue wasn't the 616 but one he created?

[Hariel0079]

If I read the panels correctly, Doom transported Jane Foster Thor back to his castle along with the rest of his Thors (he must have thought she was one of his), so now she's on the inside and has an opportunity to find out how the Thor Corps and Doom's rule really work.

I didn't mention anything on Thor, but like those who got transported by Strange, I'm sure she'll be dealt a similar fate.

[Hariel0079]

Copies created by Doom !?

* If the case should be much weaker than the original and limited.

Saved patches of earth at impact points. If they were copies we shouldn't have anyone defying him. So to say the least I'd say memory altered.

[Narasinha]

One would think but, MM was on equal grounds with the Beyonders in terms of Power, and he instructed on how to prepare for them.

Wasn't MM a creation of the Beyonders?

But what I wanted to say is that it's not just a question of "power" or who is "stronger". It's also a question of how you use it, of opportunity, of strategy, of will, of luck,... It's not always the stronger that win. Most of the cosmic entities are the "manifestation" of an "aspect" of the multiverse (they are called conceptual being because they are the embodiment of a concept). They may be all-powerfull concerning that "aspect" but it doesn't mean they can affect other "aspects" of the multiverse.