Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[ian0delond]

Obviously Cyclops isn't dead, unless Doom killed him some other way Celeste as a Phoenix got her hate sliced opened in Warsong by Wolverine and healed instantly.

I guess if Hickman wanted a second host for the Phoenix he would have brought young Jean Grey in the raft.

[Biclopcicle]

I have a question.

During the Original Sin arc Cap is sent to the future. It is explained that no matter what they all fail. Everything dies. But did it ever explain in those futures HOW they were still around if in fact the final inursion happened?

Right as the conversation got to that point, Cap jumped again. No, they never explained how those futures managed to exist.

My guess is that there will be some kind of reset such that spacetime gets restored, more or less, to a pre-incursion state. Obviously some of the multiversal counterparts will end up on our earth. When someone (such as Immortus) looks back on the time of Battleworld, there will be a brief glitch/gap, like when a CD skips. Battleworld will be unobservable to the future (except maybe Franklin Richards).

[Drakeon]

Right as the conversation got to that point, Cap jumped again. No, they never explained how those futures managed to exist.

My guess is that there will be some kind of reset such that spacetime gets restored, more or less, to a pre-incursion state. Obviously some of the multiversal counterparts will end up on our earth. When someone (such as Immortus) looks back on the time of Battleworld, there will be a brief glitch/gap, like when a CD skips. Battleworld will be unobservable to the future (except maybe Franklin Richards).

Hmm. I wonder if Dooms attack on the beyonders altered those futures and now the future has a clean slate

[Biclopcicle]

Hmm. I wonder if Dooms attack on the beyonders altered those futures and now the future has a clean slate

That is the main question- whether those were possible futures or actual parts of the branching timeline. My guess is yes they were actual futures, since the rogue planet created a closed causality loop and Franklin supposedly remembers everything.

Hickman has touched on this issue a few times, both in FF and Avengers (via Franklin). The future is organic and can be altered but certain things will happen no matter The variables ("fate").

[ian0delond]

Guardians 3000 made a great job to show what was the "future" after the incursions.
It is not the future properly existing, more an echo of what it could have been.

Time is a dimension such as a direction in space. When the universe is destroyed, time goes with it.
In the future the incursion has not happened "yet", but already started to decompose.

Imagine time as a paper band. The incursion is not a point on it, or even were the band is cut by a pair of scissor. The incursion is where you put the lightning match on the paper and the end of the universe the fire that burn it all. In all direction

If you ask where there is a future, you should also wonder why is there still a past. Because the fire has not already touch the paper when Cap has been jump into the future.

[vitruvian]

Having the power doesn't mean he can do it. It's responsible to pass impartial judgment and act only on what is the greatest good of the multiverse. So, no, he can't destroy the multiverse (except if he judge that it's the best for it...)

Like I said, the LT was perfectly capable of destroying universes, otherwise his threats to pass judgment by destroying the 616 universe would have been empty. He just wouldn't do it unless it made sense in his role as cosmic arbiter of the multiverse.

Moot, of course, because he's gone now, but that's what what being capable of something means... that you can do it, not that you necessarily will.

[vitruvian]

Guardians 3000 made a great job to show what was the "future" after the incursions.
It is not the future properly existing, more an echo of what it could have been.

Time is a dimension such as a direction in space. When the universe is destroyed, time goes with it.
In the future the incursion has not happened "yet", but already started to decompose.

Imagine time as a paper band. The incursion is not a point on it, or even were the band is cut by a pair of scissor. The incursion is where you put the lightning match on the paper and the end of the universe the fire that burn it all. In all direction

If you ask where there is a future, you should also wonder why is there still a past. Because the fire has not already touch the paper when Cap has been jump into the future.

Nope. If that were the case there would have been no way for Doom and Molecule Man to go into the white space where a universe used to exist, travel into the past, and assassinate that first alternate Molecule Man. The past of that universe was clearly not eliminated, as if it had been, there would have been no past for Doom and Reece to travel back to.

[jpmst17]

yeah, i don't think cyclops is dead. the phoenix can just revive him or doom will do it, but i doubt he's gone. as a side note, he's on upcoming covers for secret wars

[neohuey89]

I doubt Cyclops will stay dead. The Phoenix survived the incursion and is pretty hardy. Besides Cyclops talked to much about life cycles and rebirth to not come back. The young Thors must not be that strong or 616 is on another level compared to other universes, but overall this story is more and more interesting. It would be crazy if T'Challa could manipulate the zombies being the king of the dead and all, but I'm interested in seeing what's up with Wakanda. If his kingdom is on top of the fragment of Wakanda I wonder if they were displaced. So many questions.

[cwatz]

I guess if Hickman wanted a second host for the Phoenix he would have brought young Jean Grey in the raft.

I do wonder if they have additional plans with it. A lot of Cykes dialogue could also be potential foreshadowing. The nebulous nature of his words, all the "ideas cant die, resurrection, burn it down and build it back up".

Brevoort mentioned Jean was supposed to be on a raft, but they decided to cut her from the book.

It wouldn't have worked having her sit on the raft as a second host though. In what universe would Cyclops have the Phoenix when a Jean Grey is around? It was more than screwed up enough already, considering she was alive. On same raft though?
Wouldn't work in the reverse either. Bring Jean around to get owned as Phoenix and have someone else come pick up the pieces, that's a no go. Not to mention bringing in "trying to get established" teen Jeen, simply to kill her off.

[Biclopcicle]

Nope. If that were the case there would have been no way for Doom and Molecule Man to go into the white space where a universe used to exist, travel into the past, and assassinate that first alternate Molecule Man. The past of that universe was clearly not eliminated, as if it had been, there would have been no past for Doom and Reece to travel back to.

Yeah we talked about this in another thread I think. This does mean that Richards' diagram is somewhat incorrect in that progressive incursions did not cause complete contracture of spacetime. Maybe to some degree ( like if you went 60 years back in time but you only went 8; or incursions lasting 1 hr instead of 8). Either way, some fundamental aspect of spacetime remains intact even after an incursion. Therefore, Battleworld likely exists within some framework of spacetime (obviously; time passes with the usual causal direction) in either whitespace or within the Library of Worlds.

[ExodusCloak]

The Phoenix always wanted Cyclops (see Endsong). In any case this is clearly going to give Cyclops his big win in the end as in he may only be vital for the creation or fixing the universe but not play a major part in the rest of the story. And the Phoenix is going to do more creation rather then destruction. So in that regard, yes giving Cyclops the Phoenix Force was perfect. The PF will do "good".

[Biclopcicle]

As for is Cyclops dead etc: Hyperion fell to the Beyonders (+/- reappearance in SW#1) and yet he's in a post-SW series. So no need to sweat it

[ian0delond]

Nope. If that were the case there would have been no way for Doom and Molecule Man to go into the white space where a universe used to exist, travel into the past, and assassinate that first alternate Molecule Man. The past of that universe was clearly not eliminated, as if it had been, there would have been no past for Doom and Reece to travel back to.

It goes to the time paradox of doom causing the incursions because he saw one happening.

It happens because it does.

Or like Molecule Man sorta says : magic stuff mixed with sciency sort of stuff

[Noinden]

to think we cyke fans havent read the original secret wars.. pheonix got pawned..

the good news is.. Even dead we are still the best part of the book from issue 1.

Anyhow editorial is in denial mode now that the xmen movie is coming out

Its kind of annoying and par for the course with what Marvel has done with Cyke over the years anyhow. He is supposed to be the next best strategist than Cap. Yeah he's a wiener (a real Brad Majors kind of guy), but he is also that good. But lately he's just sucked. Killed his mentor/surrogate father, ruined the best relationship for him (Emma), and let the mutant race split, even though its endangered (because despite hope, the numbers were scarily low). As people have pointed out, there are plenty of Scots running around. I doubt Doom did more than kill the Pheonix host, which means there are some candidates in any of the realms to be possessed (Jeans there, as is Rachel, and well young mr Quire might get his chance).

What irks me (if Scott shows up, and just died like that) is he was a wasted character to bring along. He's said and done very little, even in issue 1, he's been pretty much lurking menacingly (which is Dooms thing), and then "snap" he's dead. Oh well, we shall see. I am loving the Mini series, and curious as to how the "normal" universe will be at the end.