Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[jackolover]

Cyclops in UE is the 616. BMB gave that much away when he mentioned that the readers would learn how Scott lost the PF.

Carol in her book is 616, if you read issue 1 of it carols troops points out that carol came out of nowhere.

As far as you "cover" goes that's baseless since they don't depict what actually happens. Hell many marvel books covers for the past couple years haven't. Solicits don't even spoil either.

SW#3 or#2 had teen Jean on the cover along with others that the main book hasn't shown. I've been reading IG and I haven't seen anything that suggest a different thanos as of yet.

Val making her statement about differences in power does stick but isn't unheard of.

What about the amnesia all the 616 Raftees have got now, or are they just hiding it from the domains?

[Shai-Hulud]

I think Stephen felt reservations about Doom on the fact Doom surrounded himself with Reed Richards family, even if it was duplicates. Doom could have surrounded himself with Wanda and her family, and any fictitious kids, too, but he did it with Reeds, so I think that's what Strange means by "stolen" here. Having an attachment to Reeds successful life was sort of bizarre to Stephen. It reeked of psychological gratification.

Victor had a childhood girlfriend, the gypsy Valeria, after whom Valeria Richards was named. But he killed her and fed her to demons for power.

He also has an adopted son, Kristoff, who is nowhere to be seen.

You'd think he'd at least resurrect good old loyal Boris, but nope.

But the character from Doom's past that I'd really like to see again is Hauptmann. Just think, all those years ago, Doom could have let Hauptmann fry Reed, but Doom chose his art collection instead!

Big mistake, Doom. Big mistake.

[jackolover]

Doom my not have killed them straight away because, as someone stated in a previous SW thread, that he want/needs someone real to have dinner with. Other than Strange, of course. Call it nostalgia or sentimentality. Maybe he even thought he could actually use their help. After they bowed to him anyway.

Of course PF is going to come into play when it is time in the story to recreate the multiverse. I just don't know that it will be a mutant that is the host. Marvel trolling xfans? But I know nothing really at all about PF Cept what I read in GotG in the 90's. And even I knew that stuff in there about PF was a little whack.

What I don't get is, instead of challenging the Raftees to bow to him, why didn't he just wipe their memories and get them to bow to him? Of cause, then the Raftees couldn't talk to Victor on the same level as if they knew the truth, but he wouldn't have to kill them for being contrary. Really, what did Doom expect people on those two rafts to do? They were super heroes. They are not rolling over like obedient pets.

It seems to me Doom was unprepared to come face to face with his history, (in the form of the two rafts full of people). It was like suddenly Doom woke up to the fact his dream world facade just got torn away. The thing with confidence is, when you have built up your reputation in another city, and a fellow who knows your criminal past appears, you panic. This guy who knows you so well can press your buttons, and you're afraid of that.

[Spideyparker75]

Victor had a childhood girlfriend, the gypsy Valeria, after whom Valeria Richards was named. But he killed her and fed her to demons for power.

He also has an adopted son, Kristoff, who is nowhere to be seen.

You'd think he'd at least resurrect good old loyal Boris, but nope.

But the character from Doom's past that I'd really like to see again is Hauptmann. Just think, all those years ago, Doom could have let Hauptmann fry Reed, but Doom chose his art collection instead!

Big mistake, Doom. Big mistake.

He will pay for that

[MouserGrey]

I agree with that. There are probably many reasons at the same time Doom acted as he did. Fear most likely being the dominant factor. Maybe love as well? I would miss the Denver Broncos if I didn't have them to hate. I love hating them in a casual kind of way. Dooms emotions were surely even stronger given his history with Reed. He felt the need to brag.

What if Doom is a container for the beyonders? The cover of the next issue looks like half his face is fractured with images of baby beyonders from the sw2 in the 80s. A rif on the beyonders in Klaw from the original sw? Maybe those are images of Doom in the shards.

[cwatz]

What I don't get is, instead of challenging the Raftees to bow to him, why didn't he just wipe their memories and get them to bow to him?

Perhaps he can't do that when it comes to the 616 rafters. Maybe he has more strength within this domain (in terms of offing Scotty), but he doesn't seem to be able to manipulate them in the way he has reformed UE on multiple occasions (or so it says), including all the people within it. They are also unique in that they have memories in tact.

Perhaps the big reason Strange went against him. These aren't playthings he can create or remove at will, its not some matrix stuff, they are legitimate people. Really makes you wonder exactly what Battleworld is, because there is definitely more under the hood.

Cyclops died. So the one in UE is not the same. Unless he gets recreated which would be pointless.

I don't see how UE and the raft 616 Scotty can be the same. But at the same point, I'm not sure how hes cloned considering he is on a raft. Something definitely doesn't add up.

[Shai-Hulud]

What if Doom is a container for the beyonders?

Yep, just what I was thinking. In the first Secret Wars, he was literally bursting with Baby Beyonder's power. The moment his concentration lapsed, Baby Beyonder stole it back.

So my guess is that Doom is probably waging a severe inner battle, which explains why his capabilities seem below even Baby Beyonder's.

[ExodusCloak]

Ok, so I stand corrected, but how does that justify your stance? Again a godly imbued character vs the power of the beyonders?

Those beings the beyonders killed can instantly heal as well.

Stand corrected? You sure insisted on it without going back to verify you read the post correctly.

Obviously Cyclops isn't dead, unless Doom killed him some other way Celeste as a Phoenix got her hate sliced opened in Warsong by Wolverine and healed instantly.

Unless Doom used some other way to kill him physically snapping Phoenix Cyclops neck isn't going to make much of a difference if Celeste can get her head sliced into three and heal instantly.

We were discussing if Cyclops was dead or not, not who would win in a fight between Doom and Cyclops as we have already seen the outcome.

[Hariel0079]

What about the amnesia all the 616 Raftees have got now, or are they just hiding it from the domains?

Doom or St ranges power at work.

[Hariel0079]

Stand corrected? You sure insisted on it without going back to verify you read the post correctly.

Are you saying your wrong on it?


Unless Doom used some other way to kill him physically snapping Phoenix Cyclops neck isn't going to make much of a difference if Celeste can get her head sliced into three and heal instantly.

Nope,cause again power of the beyonders, the same power that killed every other super powerful cosmic entities and gods. All killed no special way just killed, all like the PF can heal from anything but didn't. Your statement makes little to no sense.

We were discussing if Cyclops was dead or not, not who would win in a fight between Doom and Cyclops as we have already seen the outcome.

Read bold statement and go back several pages. Cause you seem to severely misunderstand something here. Scott dead but more than likely brought back without the PF.

[Hariel0079]

Cyclops died. So the one in UE is not the same. Unless he gets recreated which would be pointless.

Thanos in IG is def not 616. Opposite outfits and personalities, knowledge and history. This one is obvious and confirmed by the writer himself to be an alt so...

Cyclops is 616 without PF, So... (per BMB)

Note that you do understand those on BW in their respected domains are not recreations right?

[ExodusCloak]

Read bold statement and go back several pages. Cause you seem to severely misunderstand something here. Scott dead but more than likely brought back without the PF.

No I'm saying you should pay more attention to what you read if you're going to go out of your way to insist that a user said something.

Nope the abstracts did not have their necks physically snapped, they were attacked by beyonder based energy attacks. The Phoenix Force will act when it wants to act. Just like how the PF allowed Xorn to kill Jean Grey. It took Jean Grey 150 years to "heal" in HCT, and that's only because she was needed in HCT to save the universe.

[cwatz]

Unless Doom used some other way to kill him physically snapping Phoenix Cyclops neck isn't going to make much of a difference if Celeste can get her head sliced into three and heal instantly.

We were discussing if Cyclops was dead or not, not who would win in a fight between Doom and Cyclops as we have already seen the outcome.

Technically he could die from it. Jean got killed from poor blood flow. Granted the whole randomly wandering up to Xorneto, dying in such an absurd fashion and never returning, it all points to the "Phoenix plotting to take her" theory. Cyke getting his neck snapped as part of a Phoenix masterplan doesn't seem likely. Unless it pops in another host later and just used him to get on the playing field.

Timing is also a mess. If it were going to keep him alive, it would have done so immediately. Like the 5 billion wolverine stabs in Endsong, or the headslice in Warsong. It only stays down if it wants to.

Of course it all comes down to what a writer feels like doing. I suspect hes dead for no other reason than they already have an easy out to bring him back into the fold, and so the story can continue to hold some weight.

[Iron Maiden]

Can everyone agree this is the most interesting crossover in years? I'm absolutely loving it!

I've got to double and maybe triple that sentiment.

QFT. Even though a lot of posters didn't care for some of the build up in the Avengers/NA it lead to some of the longest and most interesting discussions on these boards. Props to Hickman.

[ExodusCloak]

Technically he could die from it. Jean got killed from poor blood flow. Granted the whole randomly wandering up to Xorneto, dying in such an absurd fashion and never returning, it all points to the "Phoenix plotting to take her" theory. Cyke getting his neck snapped as part of a Phoenix masterplan doesn't seem likely. Unless it pops in another host later and just used him to get on the playing field.

Timing is also a mess. If it were going to keep him alive, it would have done so immediately. Like the 5 billion wolverine stabs in Endsong, or the headslice in Warsong. It only stays down if it wants to.

Of course it all comes down to what a writer feels like doing. I suspect hes dead for no other reason than they already have an easy out to bring him back into the fold, and so the story can continue to hold some weight.

Jean got killed because the Phoenix wanted to her die. Additionally if the Phoenix Force is unable to take Dr. Doom out in a straight up fight then why wouldn't it stay out of it until it's ready to fix the universe. Hickman isn't stupid, he chose the PF on purpose. It's job and role in the universe is vital, and it hasn't been outright erased from the universe. It will be very important in fixing the multiverse that's it's job. Additionally, the fact that he chose Cyclops to host it is fitting given his role in AvX. It's like Cyclops redemption arc.