Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[Iron Maiden]

Didn't Doom and Reed use to get together to play chess each year on some Latverian holiday dedicated to temporarily putting aside grievances?

Yes, that was a great one shot story called My Dinner with Doom by the late Dwayne McDuffie. It was called Rapprochement Day and held on Cynthia von Doom's birthday. That is a bit ironic because IMO Victor takes more after his mother, who was willing to take up arms magically speaking against the soldiers. His father was the tribe's healer and more of the pacificist type.

[jackolover]

So yeah, another droll, dull issue. Hickman's writing is just so dry that there's no energy behind this thing. This could have been told in half the pages, but this series just has to be 8 issues for some reason.

I see a lot of gushing over Doom here, and he is a really cool character, but it's almost as if a lot of you guys haven't read previous Doom stories at all. He has done similar things in the past (not to the same scale), and done them better. He has conquered in stories that moved and had a pulse, and it's like a bunch of folks are being exposed to him for the first time. Hickman doesn't deserve the credit for riffing on an old song, playing it much much slower.

I really don't like what's being done with Dr. Strange here either. The incoming power was so overwhelming that it scared Stephen, but knowing full well that Doom would receive it, he turns away? He doesn't step up and sacrifice himself to stop the villain from winning it all? It's just not very heroic at all. Watching Strange play lapdog to Doom (for however long) doesn't feel right, and chips away at the Dr. Strange character.

Otherwise, what did we have here? Doom sitting in a chair, talking to his servants about stuff going on. Then he arrives on the scene and blows stuff up. The end. I must be old, but I remember when comic books contained a hell of a lot more story than that.

I don't have the same evaluation of Doom you have, and see his actions on Battleworld quite different to Secret Wars #1, where Doom completely lost control.

But it is interesting how you sum up Dr Strange as being unheroic, and maybe he was, considering he came from the 616. So it was a good idea of Hickman to eliminate Strange at this point in the story. One wonders if all those "Heroes" from Reeds Raft from the 616, are just as tainted as Strange and can't be allowed to carry over into NuMarvel?

[jackolover]

Who is 616 Reed Richards to judge anything when he and the rest of the Illuminati other than Namor and Maximus ran away and were going to let two universes be vaporized without telling anyone else what the problem was?

It's a relevant question. That time and place where what mattered to Reed Richards has flown by. And Illuminati are some pretty unpalatable characters after Time Runs Out.

The only thing I can come up with is that Reed Richards still thinks in a 616 framework, when that framework is inconsequential. Reed carries over the expectation of a democracy, and his own family values, but he has emerged into a 400 year old mentality he is unable to comprehend. So Reed, being his same pigheaded self, expects Doom to fall into line with forward thinking, but Doom holds all the cards in this world.

[Conway]

One wonders if all those "Heroes" from Reeds Raft from the 616, are just as tainted as Strange and can't be allowed to carry over into NuMarvel?

Actually I figured it was because the characters from the two rafts are the only ones that will remember the old MU when all this crap is over. The story is about Reed and Doom but everyone else is there because they were the ones that needed to remember their entire history.

[jackolover]

We see in this issue what Doom learned from his experiences as the god of his own universe in Hickman's Fantastic Four #611.

He learned nothing. Absolutely nothing. He overestimates just how much control that he has with his powers over those he considers his inferiors. His minions always eventually defy him as Strange must, yet there is no plan other than possibly killing Strange who was doing all of the dirty work Doom didn't want to do.

Certainly without Strange, Two Thors are dead, (Beta Ray Bill and Iron Man Thor), and Doom has done nothing about it. The spiral is beginning to whirl out of control.

No, where are you getting any of that? Steve didn't break a case and run off with the Time Gem; he used the Infinity Gauntlet to stop one Incursion, all the gems but the Time Gem shattered and the Time Gem disappeared, then later on the Time Gem reappeared and took him and other Avengers to a bunch of future times.

I was referring to Original Sin Avengers and the Kangs.

Strange could have at least used his imagination and bought Doom some time instead of harping on Doom's terror. For example Strange and Doom could have put the people-from-the-raft's consciousnesses into microscopic puppet bodies and brainwashed them into thinking they were living in a tiny quiet American town.

Two things

Doom and Strange were lapsed into a false sense of security for 8 years so there planning for this surprise of real characters didn't leave them room for rational thought, on both sides, Doom or Strange.

And I think Strange honestly saw a better way than Doom, once the Raft heroes showed up. He didn't side with Doom anymore.

But that still doesn't mean that Strange should've sided with herose and Cabal. Not when he knows that Doom is the literal core of all they had left.

He basically chose his friends (and the Cabal) over the remainder of reality, potentially. That makes no sense, after all the work he's done. Those same friends he saved were going to let the universe die, while Doom actually did something.

It's not fair to Doom.

Also, yes, Doom surrounded himself with Reed's family, per se, but it's not really Reed's family. It's been 8 years, so that Val and Franklin are more than likely Doom's biological children. People forget that in the reality where Doom married Sue, Val looked the way she did there first; when Reed and Sue had Val it was basically the same Val.

It's interesting about children. Val had no fear of Doom, even though Doom had sent her brother to Hell and made him suffer. Val was almost like Dooms confidant once she was old enough to make decisions on her own, and behaved like Doom was a reasonable person. For a while there, up to AXIS, Doom indulged Val by being the good guy, and even in Battleworld, this Val has no trouble with all the violence and brutality, or the contradiction between science and religion. The Battleworld Val has contested with Dr Strange, but it hasn't bubbled over to Doom. I think as Val grows into a teenager, although she will be contrary, even to Dooms face, I think Doom will have the most patience with Val than anybody else.

He took what he could save from the destroyed earths and made a world out of it. He chose to keep this Sue, and her kids around him. There is no chance involved in that it was his choice as god of the planet. Like he said he'd been watching to find a Reed and didn't. That means he looked for Reed and his Family and kept the parts he wanted for himself. I'm not a fan of this characterization of Doom, but he is clearly obsessed with Reed.

None of this deals with the fact that the same Dr Strange that sold his soul to some version of the devil for the power to save the universe decided he didn't want that power from someone else and let Doom have it so that he could be Doom's errand boy. Even as a plot device it's just lazy and doesn't ring true.

I think there is a difference between wanting enough power to blow up Incursion Earths, and holding a planet together full of people. I don't think Starbrand had the power Doom has, even though he could blow up planets.

[RLAAMJR.]

I predict that Secret wars #4 will take the top spot as best-selling comic for the month of July 2015.

[Iron Maiden]

Two things

Doom and Strange were lapsed into a false sense of security for 8 years so there planning for this surprise of real characters didn't leave them room for rational thought, on both sides, Doom or Strange.

And I think Strange honestly saw a better way than Doom, once the Raft heroes showed up. He didn't side with Doom anymore.

I still think that Strange was playing both sides of the fence here. He gave Reed and the rest of the raft surivors a stern look and then laid it all out to them how things were and told them pretty much to accept things as they are. I don't know how he expected Doom to react when Scott flat out tried to kill him and burn down everything. I think Doom would be justified not to trust them into not rocking the boat. Stephen could have been a mediator but I guess he pushed the wrong button with Reed and underestimated the depth of his anger about it.

It's interesting about children. Val had no fear of Doom, even though Doom had sent her brother to Hell and made him suffer. Val was almost like Dooms confidant once she was old enough to make decisions on her own, and behaved like Doom was a reasonable person. For a while there, up to AXIS, Doom indulged Val by being the good guy, and even in Battleworld, this Val has no trouble with all the violence and brutality, or the contradiction between science and religion. The Battleworld Val has contested with Dr Strange, but it hasn't bubbled over to Doom. I think as Val grows into a teenager, although she will be contrary, even to Dooms face, I think Doom will have the most patience with Val than anybody else.

IMO the short answer for me is that Hickman just ignores Unthinkable and moves on. He's not the only writer do to that. JMS sort of ignored parts of it too. It's a passive/aggressive retcon just not to bring it up very much. I was just thinking its been over 10 years hasn't it? Probably a lot of current fans never read it.

Doom is not exactly the most balanced person out there (and honestly I like him that way flaws and all) but I think he's come a long way from the ranting version of the Silver Age. That's not to say other writers go back to it from time to time.

[The Fury]

Just a thought, Doom is Omnipotent, he doesn't see all. Does this mean when he ported his Thors back to base, he also ported Thor?

[Iron Maiden]

Just a thought, Doom is Omnipotent, he doesn't see all. Does this mean when he ported his Thors back to base, he also ported Thor?

Yeah, that's been brought up by others here that probably she was included in that.

[The Fury]

Yeah, that's been brought up by others here that probably she was included in that.

I guessed as much, on both counts (didn't want to search through 40 pages just to find out. ). Cheers. That part of things might be interesting, although with only 4 issues left not sure how much exploration of it can be done, we've taken 4 issues to get here.

[Iron Maiden]

I guessed as much, on both counts (didn't want to search through 40 pages just to find out. ). Cheers. That part of things might be interesting, although with only 4 issues left not sure how much exploration of it can be done, we've taken 4 issues to get here.

I don't blame you...it's a lot of pages to go through. I'm just not as positive she was included but I'd have to go back and check the pages again at home. But a number of posters believe it is her.

[Mr`Orange]

I totally called God Emperor Doom!

Hickman loves Herbert's work and rightly so, good to see another call out to that series.

[Random4]

so pretty much what im getting at, granted i have only read the first issue, but based on this thread

Doom is a god, and yet the 1 person he is afraid of, the 1 person he is obsessed about is Reed?

[runguy]

of course its Reed. its been Reed since the beginning. Hickman's story has been as much a character study between these two as its been universes ending. If you read the earliest FF (Kirby and Lee) Reed's always been his better

[jackolover]

But how is the story of the preservation of Battleworld linked in with the story of Doom and Reed? I thought Secret Wars had to do with a transition from the old Marvel to the new Marvel. If this becomes a story where Reed becomes the Savior while Doom is relegated to loony toons, it reduces the story down to good triumphs over evil.

I have noticed that the cause of the Incursions is not all cut and dry, and that Dr Strange didn't fully explain to the Raftees the chain that Doom was put inside of, (a perpetual loop, where if Molecule Man tells Doom about the time bombs, and Doom must kill all the MM, it teases the Beyonders out to fight Doom, and Doom defeats them, but, the downside is it creates the Incursions destroying the Multiverse), I'm not sure the super heroes would be all that sympathetic to Doom. So there is a side that would see what Doom did to start Incursions was evil, not the time bombs the Beyonders set in the Molecule Men.