Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[SidheKnight]

But how is the story of the preservation of Battleworld linked in with the story of Doom and Reed? I thought Secret Wars had to do with a transition from the old Marvel to the new Marvel. If this becomes a story where Reed becomes the Savior while Doom is relegated to loony toons, it reduces the story down to good triumphs over evil.

I have noticed that the cause of the Incursions is not all cut and dry, and that Dr Strange didn't fully explain to the Raftees the chain that Doom was put inside of, (a perpetual loop, where if Molecule Man tells Doom about the time bombs, and Doom must kill all the MM, it teases the Beyonders out to fight Doom, and Doom defeats them, but, the downside is it creates the Incursions destroying the Multiverse), I'm not sure the super heroes would be all that sympathetic to Doom. So there is a side that would see what Doom did to start Incursions was evil, not the time bombs the Betonders set in the Molecule Men.

I think it will be about all those things: Reed vs. Doom, The Heroes vs. Doom, The Heroes vs. The Beyonders (who I bet are not dead after all), and they will explain why exactly is all of this happening, and how it will turn into New Marvel.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

But how is the story of the preservation of Battleworld linked in with the story of Doom and Reed? I thought Secret Wars had to do with a transition from the old Marvel to the new Marvel. If this becomes a story where Reed becomes the Savior while Doom is relegated to loony toons, it reduces the story down to good triumphs over evil.

I have noticed that the cause of the Incursions is not all cut and dry, and that Dr Strange didn't fully explain to the Raftees the chain that Doom was put inside of, (a perpetual loop, where if Molecule Man tells Doom about the time bombs, and Doom must kill all the MM, it teases the Beyonders out to fight Doom, and Doom defeats them, but, the downside is it creates the Incursions destroying the Multiverse), I'm not sure the super heroes would be all that sympathetic to Doom. So there is a side that would see what Doom did to start Incursions was evil, not the time bombs the Beyonders set in the Molecule Men.

It wouldn't be a good vs/triumphs over evil thing, because Doom isn't evil in this event. Even if the Raftees do fund out that Doom did start the Incursions, they'd also find out that it was also somewhat indirectly, and that Doom had no choice. It was either save SOMETHING, or let the Beyonders finish their "total annihilation for kicks" experiment. Was it not those very same heroes that were going to let their own Earth die several times over, and in the end decided to let the many die to save the "qualified" few, and even failed at that?

They literally have no leg, let alone high ground, to stand on.

[The Fury]

I don't blame you...it's a lot of pages to go through. I'm just not as positive she was included but I'd have to go back and check the pages again at home. But a number of posters believe it is her.

I had a look, everyone is in shot when Doom arrives except Cyclops and Thor, I presume then due to the look of one of the Thors when they get taken to Doom's fortress, that she is there. Like I say, it's a nice addition to the plot that I think will sadly not be explored enough in the remaining issues.

3 build up issues and #4 to establish threat, with only 4 left not sure how much can be done.

[Ciriaco]

I had a look, everyone is in shot when Doom arrives except Cyclops and Thor, I presume then due to the look of one of the Thors when they get taken to Doom's fortress, that she is there. Like I say, it's a nice addition to the plot that I think will sadly not be explored enough in the remaining issues.

3 build up issues and #4 to establish threat, with only 4 left not sure how much can be done.

Don't recall where I read it, but the last 2 (or 3?) issues are double-sized I think, or at least have an increased page count.

[rukkis]

I think it will be about all those things: Reed vs. Doom, The Heroes vs. Doom, The Heroes vs. The Beyonders (who I bet are not dead after all), and they will explain why exactly is all of this happening, and how it will turn into New Marvel.

Don't forget about Heroes vs Cabal and Cabal vs Doom.

[The Fury]

Don't recall where I read it, but the last 2 (or 3?) issues are double-sized I think, or at least have an increased page count.

I'd hope all of them as most issues so far have 2 or 3 pages an issue taken up with big white pages with either 1 word on them, the title or the list of cast. I hope I'm not paying for those.

[Iron Maiden]

Don't recall where I read it, but the last 2 (or 3?) issues are double-sized I think, or at least have an increased page count.

Then again I would have to think that sometimes they leave openings to be picked up in the tie ins. Isn't there a separate title called SW Thors?

[jackolover]

It wouldn't be a good vs/triumphs over evil thing, because Doom isn't evil in this event. Even if the Raftees do fund out that Doom did start the Incursions, they'd also find out that it was also somewhat indirectly, and that Doom had no choice. It was either save SOMETHING, or let the Beyonders finish their "total annihilation for kicks" experiment. Was it not those very same heroes that were going to let their own Earth die several times over, and in the end decided to let the many die to save the "qualified" few, and even failed at that?

They literally have no leg, let alone high ground, to stand on.

Forgot about the Illuminati letting the many die to save the raft. There were extenuating circumstances, in that the original ones got killed on the way to the raft, but it turned out the teleporter only picked super heroes to collect, not gen pop, so I wonder at the logic here, of whether gen pop is better than super heroes or not? What was the point of the MU? To perpetuate and protect the gen pop, or, a mutual preservation society for super people?

[MyriVerse]

Forgot about the Illuminati letting the many die to save the raft. There were extenuating circumstances, in that the original ones got killed on the way to the raft, but it turned out the teleporter only picked super heroes to collect, not gen pop, so I wonder at the logic here, of whether gen pop is better than super heroes or not? What was the point of the MU? To perpetuate and protect the gen pop, or, a mutual preservation society for super people?

Well, general population was impossible.

[Iron Maiden]

Well, general population was impossible.

I also remember that the Illuminati came up with a list of experts to take along but some of them preferred to stay behind at the last minute and see things to the end with the loved ones. I guess it was too late to come up with a lottery.

[kevinism]

"total annihilation for kicks"

HAHAH That's what they should have called the event

[jackolover]

Well, general population was impossible.

But you can see what I mean? It was elitist to just pick super humans. They could have filled up the raft with random males and females of breeding age if they were going to start humanity over again. What would they have gotten with just super humans for a population, if there was no Battleworld?

[SidheKnight]

Don't forget about Heroes vs Cabal and Cabal vs Doom.

Yeah, I forgot about those.

[vitruvian]

So there is a side that would see what Doom did to start Incursions was evil, not the time bombs the Beyonders set in the Molecule Men.

Well, no. I don't think anybody but maybe the Beyonders could fail to see that both were evil. It's just that Doom has a possible argument that his way was the lesser evil, since it led to the existence of Battleworld, which probably proves essential to the recreation of the multiverse by the end of the event.

But I can't see anybody cheering for the Beyonders setting time bombs, can you?

There must also be a third alternative to the Molecule Men all going off on schedule, or the multiverse being destroyed through Incursions. Otherwise, none of the alternate futures that go out beyond Molecule Man getting his powers/being set +25 years could ever have existed and been available to travel to, or to have Kangs and Zarrkos coming back to bedevil the present. Or perhaps the discontinuity of the multiverse being destroyed, with only Battleworld left, and then the multiverse being recreated, has always been there as an immutable part of history nobody from the farther future ever mentions.

It wouldn't be a good vs/triumphs over evil thing, because Doom isn't evil in this event. Even if the Raftees do fund out that Doom did start the Incursions, they'd also find out that it was also somewhat indirectly, and that Doom had no choice. It was either save SOMETHING, or let the Beyonders finish their "total annihilation for kicks" experiment. Was it not those very same heroes that were going to let their own Earth die several times over, and in the end decided to let the many die to save the "qualified" few, and even failed at that?

They literally have no leg, let alone high ground, to stand on.

What 'let the many die' are we talking about? Refusing to try to destroy the Ultimate Universe version of Earth? Especially when we're told that at this late date even that wouldn't have worked? I don't think there was any 'let' about it; their own Earth was going to die, period, and so they tried to save something. That they failed even in that doesn't mean that they were in any way sacrificing their own Earth in trying to do so; they were simply trying.

Forgot about the Illuminati letting the many die to save the raft. There were extenuating circumstances, in that the original ones got killed on the way to the raft, but it turned out the teleporter only picked super heroes to collect, not gen pop, so I wonder at the logic here, of whether gen pop is better than super heroes or not? What was the point of the MU? To perpetuate and protect the gen pop, or, a mutual preservation society for super people?

Again, what 'let'? Earth at that point was going to die regardless of what they did or did not do, so we're told, and the raft had limited room.... which they ended up letting Manifold's powers decide how to fill.

But you can see what I mean? It was elitist to just pick super humans. They could have filled up the raft with random males and females of breeding age if they were going to start humanity over again. What would they have gotten with just super humans for a population, if there was no Battleworld?

Except jackolover, they didn't pick just superhumans. They had picked a bunch of scientists and engineers and other people with the skills to rebuild civilization wherever they landed, which given limited room on the raft, is pretty much exactly what you would want to do, rather than pick random people. If you pick random people, what if none of them know how to farm, or how to build a house, or medicine, etc.?

But then when that group of people (implicitly not all or mostly superhumans) got shot out of the sky with Black Widow, they let Manifold's power choose who they would need. Not even Manifold, according to his own conscious wishes or preferences... his powers, which were supposed to be good at transporting what's needed.

I was referring to Original Sin Avengers and the Kangs.

Okay. Nevertheless, Steve didn't break a case and run off with the Time Gem in any story.

I don't know why so many people are assuming Doom had two children with Sue. Isn't it entirely possible they are alternate versions he found and he just reshaped their memories like he did most of the inhabitants of Battleworld? When he found them, Val and Franklin could have already been born, and he just mindwiped them.

Well, there is the factor that Strange tells us Battleworld has actually been around for eight years. So, if the Valeria here was a preexisting one, either she was an infant at the time of the formation of Battleworld, or she should appear rather older than she does.

Or perhaps Franklin's Peter Pan effect works on him and his sister even on Battleworld... ;-)

[dzub]

3 build up issues and #4 to establish threat, with only 4 left not sure how much can be done.

Lol Jonathan Hickman in a Nutshell