Secret Wars #4 spoiler

[Byakko]

Well he did save patches of the multiverse to make Battleworld. That wasn't boring. The revalation that Strange gave us with what Doom did interms of Reeds family while boring in a matter it definitely screams something Doom would do.

The more I think of it, and reread the dialogue of Dooms words to Reed... Doom did all this to gloat which is typical but gives it a classic FF feel.

Just like Strange could smell it, Doom's fear was reeking off him throughout the whole issue the moment he knew Reed was there. He was posturing yes...because he's afraid. You posture and preen because you're afraid people know you're afraid.

Now possibly, there is a survival issue here. I still think a lot of Doom's power is faith-based. The moment Doom starts doubting himself because Reed's there, his entire control might start break, Battleworld would probably literally start to break. The worse thing is when God stops believing in himself, that's pretty much kaput as far as faith-based powers go.

Phoenixclops surving would undermine the story since we were shown the Beyonders able to kill the living tribunal which is a really big deal. You would have to have read.. Infintity gauntlet and other old Marvel cosmic books.

Have to agree, as far as the cosmic powers go, the Phoenix force was never up there with the Infinity Gauntlet level of cosmic entities (by that, I mean the ones they called in when Thanos had it were beings like Master Order and Lord Chaos; Mistress Hate and Lady Love; Eternity etc.)

[Hariel0079]

Well aware that multiple Phoenixes exists, but these are the hosts not the Force itself, which is singular. I am pretty certain that in canon there is only a single Phoenix Force, but many hosts.

Source? I don't recall such a thing. I do know there is only ONE living tribunal.

[LuisPD]

It should be noted to people that we only saw Doom kill the Phoenix host, but not the Phoenix Force (PF) itself. After all, the PF survived all of Jean's deaths. So, PF is still available to a) revive Cyclops, b) find a new host, or c) be available to Reed and the others in order to restart the multiverse in some way.

[emac1790]

Well aware that multiple Phoenixes exists, but these are the hosts not the Force itself, which is singular. I am pretty certain that in canon there is only a single Phoenix Force, but many hosts.

My bad, I was thinking about the hosts. Still a doubt that the PF is as powerful as LT. Perhaps a step or two below.

[Hariel0079]

Just like Strange could smell it, Doom's fear was reeking off him throughout the whole issue the moment he knew Reed was there. He was posturing yes...because he's afraid. You posture and preen because you're afraid people know you're afraid.

Now possibly, there is a survival issue here. I still think a lot of Doom's power is faith-based. The moment Doom starts doubting himself because Reed's there, his entire control might start break, Battleworld would probably literally start to break. The worse thing is when God stops believing in himself, that's pretty much kaput as far as faith-based powers go.

(referring in bold) that reminds me of the 90's SM cartoon when it had SW led by SM. Doom assimilated the beyonders powers onto himself and he couldn't control it due to his inner demons making monstrosities while he would sleep.

[emac1790]

Source? I don't recall such a thing. I do know there is only ONE living tribunal.

That's true. Lucky for you I'm at home so I can scan this page from the Phoenix Handbook.

X-Men_ Phoenix Force Handbook V2010 #1 - Phoenix Force (2010_9) - Page 51.jpg

[LuisPD]

My bad, I was thinking about the hosts. Still a doubt that the PF is as powerful as LT. Perhaps a step or two below.

But thats the thing, the PF does not need to be as powerful as the LT. We only saw Doom kill the host, so the PF can be still present, like every other time that a host was killed.

And that is without considering that Doom and Strange may be mistaken in their thought that Doom has the Beyonders powers.

[Hariel0079]

It should be noted to people that we only saw Doom kill the Phoenix host, but not the Phoenix Force (PF) itself. After all, the PF survived all of Jean's deaths. So, PF is still available to a) revive Cyclops, b) find a new host, or c) be available to Reed and the others in order to restart the multiverse in some way.

It's not the PF itself that's in question, It's the host.

in mutopia the have a Phoenix Egg (E for Extinction #1 SW Tie-in)

Xtinction Agenda Rachael seems to be imbued with the PF

A-Force we have Jean in PF costume.

[Habis]

I hope Cyclops is dead for good. He sounded like a mix of Magneto at his worst and "Burn-Everything-To-Create-Something-New" Dark Phoenix...The guy doesn't learn; after what the Phoenix did to Jean, after what it did to him, he still let it corrupt him.

I guess Marvel will promote Teenclops as the main Cyclops now...

[Byakko]

(referring in bold) that reminds me of the 90's SM cartoon when it had SW led by SM. Doom assimilated the beyonders powers onto himself and he couldn't control it due to his inner demons making monstrosities while he would sleep.

You're right! Though my memory of the comic is shaky, didn't the first Beyonder manage to slip into Klaw, and use him to constantly prod and insert doubt into Doom? I'm sure that at one point, the Beyonder managed to make Doom think of a scenario where everyone survived...and it happened!

And that's the kind of power I was thinking that this current God-Doom should have. It should be 'think and it shall be'; instead of making big booms.

The thing is that God-Doom right now is like Odin - the powerset is that he's physically and cosmically powerful, and overpowers people. Has creation powers, but is tied to that kind of terrestrial style that Odin does. That's the impression I get.

While in the first Secret Wars, the powers he got from the Beyonder were appropriately 'unlimited'. He couldn't even sleep because his reality-bending powers would cause his dreams to happen. That's the kind of power level of a god.

So it's weird, either they (the writers) deliberately put a much lower limit on Doom this time to make it easier to write the whole stories...or he is quite obviously not using the power of a Beyonder (I'm aware that the first Beyonder got retconned, but really, at least the same power level should be expected).

[LuisPD]

It's not the PF itself that's in question, It's the host.

in mutopia the have a Phoenix Egg (E for Extinction #1 SW Tie-in)

Xtinction Agenda Rachael seems to be imbued with the PF

A-Force we have Jean in PF costume.

But they are battleworld PF, not the real one. The same as the Doom's Thors, who are not real Thors. In this same issue, its stated that 616 Thanos is different and more powerful that the battleworld ones.

[Hariel0079]

That's true. Lucky for you I'm at home so I can scan this page from the Phoenix Handbook.

X-Men_ Phoenix Force Handbook V2010 #1 - Phoenix Force (2010_9) - Page 51.jpg

I couldn't read that attach file so I rechecked comicvine.

The Phoenix Force is an immortal entity and is the prime universal force of life. It was born of the void, between states of being. It is the origin of all psionic energy and will exist forever in all realities of the omniverse.

Being it's "born of the void, between state of beings" (i'm guessing high entities such as eternity and so forth) I doubt it's stronger than the LT in anyway.

It exsist in all Realities, and many marvel writers from the 90's have shown multiple PF's through different realities.

[Byakko]

I couldn't read that attach file so I rechecked comicvine.

The Phoenix Force is an immortal entity and is the prime universal force of life. It was born of the void, between states of being. It is the origin of all psionic energy and will exist forever in all realities of the omniverse.

Being it's "born of the void, between state of beings" (i'm guessing high entities such as eternity and so forth) I doubt it's stronger than the LT in anyway.

But why is it a bird form? That was always the thing that needled me about the PF. It's obviously a metaphor of the real-world phoenix, but if you expand it to a cosmic level, what about the planets that didn't even evolve birds? What metaphor is the PF then? Why has it always been stuck in its metaphor that only works on Earth history or planets with birds?

[Hariel0079]

But they are battleworld PF, not the real one. The same as the Doom's Thors, who are not real Thors. In this same issue, its stated that 616 Thanos is different and more powerful that the battleworld ones.

I don't think that's what it means. Doom saved patches of the multiverse. So real is not the question, but version is and from which universe they used to reside. It isn't unheard of of a counterpart to be stronger than the other or vice versa.

[Hariel0079]

But why is it a bird form? That was always the thing that needled me about the PF. It's obviously a metaphor of the real-world phoenix, but if you expand it to a cosmic level, what about the planets that didn't even evolve birds? What metaphor is the PF then? Why has it always been stuck in its metaphor that only works on Earth history or planets with birds?

Writers choice. That's what I'll go with. I'd ask stan lee or CC. To be honest I'd say they were going with the Real-world lore here.