Ultimate End #3 (SPOILERS)

[wyokid]

At the start of every tie-in it states that Doom remade reality. They aren't the original. The only original people are Doom, Strange, and the raft survivors.

[vitruvian]

That has literally nothing to do with what I'm saying; it's like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. My point was that the difference between the old characters with a mind wipe and brand new characters is effectively zero when it comes to telling the story. The poor writing of this book is irrelevant to that discussion.

No, I'm simply saying that you're wrong that retaining specific memories about Earth as opposed to Battleworld renders them brand new characters. It doesn't.

[vitruvian]

At the start of every tie-in it states that Doom remade reality. They aren't the original. The only original people are Doom, Strange, and the raft survivors.

Wrong. Read the start of every issue of the main title. It says he made Battleworld from pieces of the old Earths. Not copies of those pieces, the actual pieces. Then read every word Strange says in the main title. Hickman's in charge of this event.

[wyokid]

Wrong. Read the start of every issue of the main title. It says he made Battleworld from pieces of the old Earths. Not copies of those pieces, the actual pieces. Then read every word Strange says in the main title. Hickman's in charge of this event.

Is that why Ross is the Thing? Because that wasn't part of Future Imperfect. Is that also why there are two 616 Spider-Men? This is an alternate reality where the portal from Spider-Men fused the two universes together.

[vitruvian]

Is that why Ross is the Thing? Because that wasn't part of Future Imperfect. Is that also why there are two 616 Spider-Men? This is an alternate reality where the portal from Spider-Men fused the two universes together.

There are a lot of alternate Earths that have pieces represented on Battleworld, you realize.. but only the Manhattan in this series is directly identified as being made from pieces of 616 and 1610.

Besides, if the Ultimate characters in this series aren't actually Ultimate characters, they need to change the title to be more accurate or issue refunds... ;-) Wonder how many folks will buy a series titled Pseudo-Ultimate End or Ultimate Copies.

[gwenFan]

There are a lot of alternate Earths that have pieces represented on Battleworld, you realize.. but only the Manhattan in this series is directly identified as being made from pieces of 616 and 1610.

Besides, if the Ultimate characters in this series aren't actually Ultimate characters, they need to change the title to be more accurate or issue refunds... ;-) Wonder how many folks will buy a series titled Pseudo-Ultimate End or Ultimate Copies.

Not in the actual book.

Or the map in the book.

[Drakeon]

Im only going to go by what is said in Secret Wars. This book to me is an alt version of 616/1610 unless fully laid out by Hickman. If Im wrong fine, but it lessens the impact SW has if everyone was saved as it makes the liferafts a bit pointless.

[Plawsky]

No, I'm simply saying that you're wrong that retaining specific memories about Earth as opposed to Battleworld renders them brand new characters. It doesn't.

When did I say that?

I'm not saying it's the same thing. I'm saying the story plays out the same way either way. It has no bearing on the outcome of the story that's being told.

[wyokid]

There are a lot of alternate Earths that have pieces represented on Battleworld, you realize.. but only the Manhattan in this series is directly identified as being made from pieces of 616 and 1610.

Besides, if the Ultimate characters in this series aren't actually Ultimate characters, they need to change the title to be more accurate or issue refunds... ;-) Wonder how many folks will buy a series titled Pseudo-Ultimate End or Ultimate Copies.

My man, read the comic Ultimate End again. It makes it clear that this is NOT 616 and Ultimate.

[Teste]

This book to me is an alt version of 616/1610 unless fully laid out by Hickman

It's already laid out by Hickman. An alternate version of 616/1610 would not be 616/1610, rather 617/1611 or whatever.

If Im wrong fine, but it lessens the impact SW has if everyone was saved as it makes the liferafts a bit pointless.

The importance of the liferafts is in how they have the only people in the planet who did not have their minds altered by Doom - which means, they're the only people in existance that know the truth. They are the only people who know that, before Doom became a god, he was a man; and that he had been a god before, and even then he had been beaten.

Now, you could say "what about there being two Spider Man?" - to which I would reply, haven't you noticed how Doc Green suddenly became "classic Hulk" and back again in this issue and in the previous one? You are looking for consistency in a trash can. I don't expect anyone in Marvel but Hickman and a few other writers to actually understand what is happening in Secret Wars.

[Dicey]

Seriously though guys... Brooklyn is not in Manhattan.
-- Brooklyn

[Drakeon]

When did I say that?

I'm not saying it's the same thing. I'm saying the story plays out the same way either way. It has no bearing on the outcome of the story that's being told.

Exactly! Ultinate End doesnt really affect Secret Wars. Real or recreated the story will center on Two Reeds vs Doom.

[Dicey]

I totally buy that some of the people in this book are actually the people from 616 and 1610.

I also think that when Doom felt it was necessary, he re-created people who did not make it.

I think this because this is what the Secret Wars books say, and also because this is the only thing that explains all of what we're seeing (for example, Miles is missing AND Ultimate Cap is in this book), and also, most importantly, because this is the construct that gives the writers of each tie-in the greatest amount of creative liberty, which is clearly a big part of what this whole event is all about if not the entire point.

Basically, there's no fucking rules, dude. I mean... Brooklyn is in Manhattan now. All bets off.

it lessens the impact SW has if everyone was saved as it makes the liferafts a bit pointless.

Well, no though because the only people who know what's REALLY good are Strange (who, come to think of it, certainly spilled the fucking beans pretty quick after 8 years of maintaining a conspiracy that makes the crazy conspiracy that didn't actually happen on 9/11 look like peanuts), Doom (who is being far more human about all this than I would have thought, at least until the last thing he does in SW 4 woah), and the people on the life rafts. I've no doubt their awareness of the past will play a critical role in whatever happens next.

[Dicey]

Lol parts of New York.

I mean look, if we a) weren't talking about the greatest city in the world or b) weren't talking about a friggin *island*, whose boundaries are extremely friggin clear, fudging this would be fine.

Also: if I didn't live in Brooklyn. Probably wouldn't care then either.

Brooklyn is wayyyy better than Manhattan. Brooklyn should have survived, but if it can only survive by masquerading as a part of Manhattan, I'd rather it didn't, than suffer such indignity.

It could have just been "New York City", and not Manhattan. But it wasn't. So like... as is it just seems like kind of just another slap in the face to the idea that this event should make sense. And that's sad, because not a single other writer from any of the other tie-ins I've read seems to have anything less than vast respect for what they're supposed to be doing here. If I were Hickman, I'd feel insulted.

[Dicey]

Actually, what if the Brooklyn part is just a fever dream that Ultimate Peter is having in the nothingness of eternity that he now exists in because he wasn't on the island of Manhattan when the incursion happened? Maybe Bombshell has a chance after all...