Pre-Flashpoint Superman; Was it that bad?

[misslane]

I'll also throw in some support for Pak and Soule. Nu52 Superman was a tough adjustment for some of us. Though Morrison, Pak and Soule seem to do the character justice. Morrison had a good arc of going from rough golden age Superman to someone more inspiring. Pak continued to build on what Morrison established and really portrays Superman as compassionate and inspiring. Soule has done a good job of tackling Superman's alternate identity as Clark, why he has a secret identity, and his code against killing. There have been some interesting discussions between Superman and Wonder Woman in Soule's book that show why Clark is an important aspect of Superman and that he has a big problem with using lethal force. So I'd recommend their books for a more favorable presentation of Nu52 Superman. Superman is by no means a pushover, but he's still the pure and noble hero I grew up loving. Pak in particular really captures Superman's compassion. He really gets Superman and I hope he has a good long run on Action.

The stuff you praise of Soule's and Pak's is more or less their continuation or repetition of things Morrison's run already established. Clark pretty much said the same thing about being a reporter to Pete in a scene Sholly Fisch included in one of the early Action Comics back ups. That's not necessarily a criticism, though. For me, it's a bit too early to cheer Greg Pak's take on Superman. His stuff shows promise, but he hasn't yet tackled in any significant way the broader scope of Superman's world. He's done little with Metropolis and Daily Planet supporting cast like Jimmy and Lois. Also, while one might get some sense of Pak's Superman's dynamic with Superboy, Supergirl, and Wonder Woman from some of their appearances in Batman/Superman, they were more cameos than the deeper character work and interaction he had with Lana in Action recently. Even his work on Lana, while a nice addition, didn't cover important aspects of those characters like why Lana broke up with Clark the way she did and why it seems they hadn't been in touch for years. In other words, while Pak's work so far shows a promising knack for pacing, tone, and themes, he hasn't really gone into much depth yet. Until I see him take on other aspects of Superman, and in more depth, I don't feel ready to laud him as someone who's got it all right.

[Mr. Mastermind]

The problem with pre-Flashpoint Superman is that even before JMS made him utterly toxic, there's still no classic must-read Superman run. It was like two decades of dull run of the mill stuff. Maybe Superman didn't need a reboot for this, but it seems like writers are finally embracing the whole sci-fi Hercules idea of Superman.

Yeah, can anybody point to a Morrison Batman, Claremont X-Men or Johns Green Lantern style Superman run out of post-Crisis canon? I can't think of any. Most of it is just generic standard stuff.

It wasn't as bad as Wonder Woman's post Crisis run, so I guess that's something.

[misslane]

Yeah, can anybody point to a Morrison Batman, Claremont X-Men or Johns Green Lantern style Superman run out of post-Crisis canon? I can't think of any. Most of it is just generic standard stuff.

Kurt Busiek's work was a stand out, in my opinion.

[Billy Batson]

Kurt Busiek's work was a stand out, in my opinion.

Yeah but the editorial meddling kinda ruined it at the end.

[Sacred Knight]

If we're encompassing all of the post-Crisis incarnation of Superman, the 80s and 90s were good. The 2000s were godawful, outside of a few out-of-continuity projects.

[Joe Acro]

If we're encompassing all of the post-Crisis incarnation of Superman, the 80s and 90s were good. The 2000s were godawful, outside of a few out-of-continuity projects.

Maybe it's just me, but Superman's books around the turn of the century (1998-2002) really worked for me. Just the right amount of wackiness, high action, and personal drama.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

It's generally not as bad as it's stereotyped, but it really did get bad a lot of the time. The big standouts were Geoff Johns' run on Action and, less well-known but far better (and sadly uncollected), Joe Casey's run on Adventures of Superman. But Byrne's...alterations...and well meaning but cookie cutterish work by the likes of Dan Jurgens left him bland as hell most of the time.

[Pharozonk]

Yeah, can anybody point to a Morrison Batman, Claremont X-Men or Johns Green Lantern style Superman run out of post-Crisis canon?

I thought the early 90's Superman Triangle Era was pretty solid up until Death of Superman.

[misslane]

It's generally not as bad as it's stereotyped, but it really did get bad a lot of the time. The big standouts were Geoff Johns' run on Action and, less well-known but far better (and sadly uncollected), Joe Casey's run on Adventures of Superman. But Byrne's...alterations...and well meaning but cookie cutterish work by the likes of Dan Jurgens left him bland as hell most of the time.

What makes Johns' and Casey's work superior? What makes something qualify as bland to you?

[Mr. Mastermind]

What makes Johns' and Casey's work superior? What makes something qualify as bland to you?

A lack of imagination, new concepts or style.

And Busiek's run is good, but it's nowhere near the level of the runs I mentioned.

I thought the early 90's Superman Triangle Era was pretty solid up until Death of Superman.

The Triangle era is just really dull to me. I'm also not crazy about multiple writers crossing over all the time; it removes a distinct voice from each of them.

[Auguste Dupin]

It's generally not as bad as it's stereotyped, but it really did get bad a lot of the time. The big standouts were Geoff Johns' run on Action and, less well-known but far better (and sadly uncollected), Joe Casey's run on Adventures of Superman. But Byrne's...alterations...and well meaning but cookie cutterish work by the likes of Dan Jurgens left him bland as hell most of the time.

Really?
Because, unless I'm mistaking it with something else (the run that starts with an ex journalist writing a novel about basically Golden Age Superman, which comes to life, right?), it is collected in France.

[misslane]

A lack of imagination, new concepts or style.

And Busiek's run is good, but it's nowhere near the level of the runs I mentioned.

Thanks for the insight, although I was asking Dispenser Of Truth for his thoughts and not you. Still, it's nice to have more than one viewpoint to consider.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

What makes Johns' and Casey's work superior? What makes something qualify as bland to you?

Most of the stuff from that time is just so soap opera-ey to me, which is generally the fast track to my not being interested in a comic, but it's especially the wrong way to go with a Superman title. I'm not interested in Lucy Lane breaking the news to her parents that she's going to have to tell her parents she's having her black coworkers child out of wedlock or Cat Grant mourning her son's death, or Jonathan Kent getting amnesia while Supergirl struggles to determine if she was sent to Earth to kill Kal-El. The Superman 2000 proposal pretty much called how that stuff wasn't working anymore, and it kept on going for years. I know a lot of people love the triangle era, and there were definitely good things in there, but for me it broadly represents everything that can get me to give up on Superman not out of antipathy, but sheer boredom. And Superman should never, ever be boring of all things.

Johns run was hardly perfect, but had good moments and an appropriate scale, and the arc with Bizarro featured SUPERMAN VISION!!!!! Casey's last year on The Adventures of Superman (#613-624) is one of the most quietly revolutionary and underrated runs on the character ever. He set out to write a year of Superman stories that didn't involve him physically fighting anyone--he even had Superman identify himself as a pacifist in-story--so it was just a series of one and two part adventure tales in the Silver Age mold with a really modern sensibility...and anyone who knows Joe Casey knows he can come up with some wacky s#!t for the likes of Superman to deal with, from runaway universes to honeymooning otherdimensional insect entities to a tulpa crafted in the image of the Golden Age Superman, AND the Funky Flashman. He clearly couldn't take things as far as he wanted*, but it was nothing short of an oasis and deserves a lot more attention than its gotten.

*He's said as much in interviews that there were ideas for the character he couldn't implement, and its not surprising given that his ultra-powerful take on Superman was in his words "stronger than a million Thor's". From what I hear his run on Mr. Majestic was a much 'purer' take on what he felt Superman's adventures should be like (the first issue had him rearranging all the planets in the solar system over the course of decades, with a holographic projector he set up keeping Earth's inhabitants in the dark, to run a long con on some alien invaders), and the "Ballad of Frank Wells" section of his recent Catalyst Comix was likely also based on his ideas for the character.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Thanks for the insight, although I was asking Dispenser Of Truth for his thoughts and not you. Still, it's nice to have more than one viewpoint to consider.

Well if I'm already Kid A's sock puppet, I guess I can now be Dispenser of Truth's too!

[Auguste Dupin]

Most of the stuff from that time is just so soap opera-ey to me, which is generally the fast track to my not being interested in a comic, but it's especially the wrong way to go with a Superman title. I'm not interested in Lucy Lane breaking the news to her parents that she's going to have to tell her parents she's having her black coworkers child out of wedlock or Cat Grant mourning her son's death, or Jonathan Kent getting amnesia while Supergirl struggles to determine if she was sent to Earth to kill Kal-El. The Superman 2000 proposal pretty much called how that stuff wasn't working anymore, and it kept on going for years. I know a lot of people love the triangle era, and there were definitely good things in there, but for me it broadly represents everything that can get me to give up on Superman not out of antipathy, but sheer boredom. And Superman should never, ever be boring of all things.

Johns run was hardly perfect, but had good moments and an appropriate scale, and the arc with Bizarro featured SUPERMAN VISION!!!!! Casey's last year on The Adventures of Superman (#613-624) is one of the most quietly revolutionary and underrated runs on the character ever. He set out to write a year of Superman stories that didn't involve him physically fighting anyone--he even had Superman identify himself as a pacifist in-story--so it was just a series of one and two part adventure tales in the Silver Age mold with a really modern sensibility...and anyone who knows Joe Casey knows he can come up with some wacky s#!t for the likes of Superman to deal with, from runaway universes to honeymooning otherdimensional insect entities to a tulpa crafted in the image of the Golden Age Superman, AND the Funky Flashman. He clearly couldn't take things as far as he wanted*, but it was nothing short of an oasis and deserves a lot more attention than its gotten.

*He's said as much in interviews that there were ideas for the character he couldn't implement, and its not surprising given that his ultra-powerful take on Superman was in his words "stronger than a million Thor's". From what I hear his run on Mr. Majestic was a much 'purer' take on what he felt Superman's adventures should be like (the first issue had him rearranging all the planets in the solar system over the course of decades, with a holographic projector he set up keeping Earth's inhabitants in the dark, to run a long con on some alien invaders), and the "Ballad of Frank Wells" section of his recent Catalyst Comix was likely also based on his ideas for the character.

My favorite story of Casey is actually the one where Clark disguises himself as a worker in a mine. It's like, half Golden Age Sup, half "Must there be a Superman?".
But yeah, overall, it was pretty good. Not as good after the conclusion of the story with the hope killer guys, and I had issues with the ending of the Flashman storyline, but overall, nice.